PECS

[willowthecat]

Does anyone know if there is an evidence base/research to support the use of PECS ? I am looking to argue against its use for ds (but completely understand that others find that it does work). So is there any evidence that someone arguing against me could use ? There is one research paper on the Pyramid site but have not come across much else.

will watch this thread with interest. My 10yo DS goes to special school, he doesnt talk at all. They have started using PECS with him, think he's on stage 3, however when i ask about using them at home they say will take him ages before he's ready. Apparently doing great in school, using them for snack and lunch but as i dont see any difference at home i think maybe its just a fluke and he just takes any card unsure of what he's getting in exchange IYSWIM.

Willow, why do you think PECS wont work for your ds? have you tried using it? the reason i ask is because i was very worried about using it with dd2, she was non-verbal and i thought using PECS would give her another reason not to talk. Dd2 started using it at the age of 2.5, she picked it up very fast and within 6 months she was talking whilst using the PECS (so i was wrong).

shazain- i don't understand why the school have said you can not use it at home , surely using it at home is even more important than at school as it will make both of your lifes easier by being able to communicate.

PECS doesn't work for everyone but i deffently think its worth a try.

Hi - i am really not anti PECS. I am even trying to persuade a friend to try it with her son. I did PECS with ds when he was about 2.5 but he did not really take to it - though this could have been due to poor implementation. He started requesting and commenting verbally about 3.5 then started using a lot of echolalia. I did try PECS again around 4.5 hoping to improve sentence structure but again it did not really achieve that aim. We still need something to get his basic verbal language and question answering up to a higher level but really don't think PECS is going to do that now. Also they don't even use PECS at school, they just say they do. I think PECS can work as a 'firestarter' for communication for a lot of children so I don't know why it did not do that for us.

shaz - ds school is like that - they 'use' PECS to choose snacks and nothing else but none of the children need PECS esp as most are way ahead of ds with verbal language anyway. You should just start at home if you want to, it's nothing to do with them how you work with your son at home.

I know there are posters on here who don't like PECS so I'm sure they'll be along soon.

Like Marne, however, my DS at age 3 took off with PECS. He had a few words to meet his basic functions, but he just couldn't see the point of communication, he thought I should know what he wanted without asking. (Theory of mind stuff) Once he got used to using PECS at school (special child development school) and at home his compliance with communication came on leaps and bounds. It wasn't only his speech that was delayed, it was his whole use of communication. Once he got communicating sussed, he wanted to talk and PECS were dropped after about 6 months.

Sorry, willow, cross posted with you. Sounds like he's already got past the 6 months they were useful for my DS. Could you say how useful they were initially (lie if necessary) but that he has progressed past the need to use them and needs more specific SALT input?

Like I said, I'm not arguing against PECS just against a 'one size fits all' policy. Yes he has progressed past PECS, that's exactly my argument. I am planning to present a balanced case about PECS not an anti PECS rant as I think that will strengthen my case. There are children in the class though who are practically at NT level with speech though and they 'use' PECS to choose a snack. Anyway it's all part of a wider argument so just wondered if there was any published research.

Going a stage further into praise for PECS sounds appealing - I will use that approach !

It's interesting what you say about the TOM angle - A friend who works with autistic children told me that many children succeed with PECS because it unlocks the purpose of communication for them which they might not get despite being intelligent in other ways. ds did the hand dragging thing to get his needs met. Some researchers call this 'using adult as a tool' but I think the Hanen interpretation is more accurate that hand dragging is communication. ds has never had a problem understanding that he has to find an adult to tell when he needs something so it's another nail in his personal PECS coffin

You'll just have to be 'creative.' I was told that DS found speech too abstract and needed a concrete object to pass. He didn't take to sign language either, because it was too similar to speech, still too abstract, no matter how I tried, (and I have Stage 1 BSL). I imagine these are some of the arguments you'll get for their use. It may help to have some opposite arguments ready. I think praising PECS initially will get them thinking you are not dismissing it from a point of ignorance. That you can see it's benefits but that your DS has gained all he can from them and is capable of progressing on to the next satge, which is surely NT communication, ie speech.

Willow think my ds school use PECS for everything, they also use makaton. there are only 5 boys in the class along with teacher and at least 3 assistants. I have tried with cards at home but he just shoves me away and has no interest. marne i agree with you it would be great if he used them at home and in school and would be easier for everyone, however dont know if its because he hasnt progressed that much he has been using for about 4 years now (hes 10 and doesnt say even a single word) and think only uses for snack, lunch and happy or sad. I am going to write note in diary asking that they send home PECS that he can use cos surely it might make some difference. Heres hoping. Willow good luck to you, hope the school listen to you!! :)

Thanks everyone. I have a lot of good ideas to work on now to put into my arguments. Shaz, I think you need to get the school and the SALT who visits the school involved in developing a home PECS strategy. If he is 'doing great' at school then it is totally illogical to say that he is not ready to use them at home. I think you are being fobbed off with excuses. You may need some extra help at home to get PECS started as you will probably need a second pair of hands to help him to do the exchanges. Is there anyone you can ask to help you do this?

Thanks Willow, ive put note in his diary to ask that they send home PECS he does understand. Teacher off sick so have to wait until next week. Yes DH and his 2 brothers aged 12 & 8 will be more than happy to help. Do you know about stages, i think he's on stage 3 but been using PECS for few years now so i dont know if thats good. They use makaton always too however he doesnt seem to understand it. He doesnt say any words not even a single one, so its difficult to know how much he understands. Never say Never, eh! :)

Hi I am not a PECS expert so don't really know what the stages all are in much detail. I would suggest joining this group

[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pyramid-pecs/]

They are very good at giving detailed and informative answers so I am sure they would be happy to talk you through how to get a home PECS program going.

groups.yahoo.com/group/pyramid-pecs/

Hi Willow (haven't forgotten the harold, sorry! just been unwell, so not got out)..

I have had a similar situtation in relation to sign, (the ASD specialist school are very hot on PECs, and said they use it with all 'their' kids. but when I could demonstrate that my ds already had the level of communicaiton they were ultimately aiming for (albeit signed) they had to back off, the idea that 'we use PECs' because the setting offers snacks with a symbol card is very prevelant. [cross].

Rather than providing evidence to them it might be worth asking them to provide the evidence base for this working with kids with language abilties like your ds, (chances are they won't have it).

Just a thought, It might be worth going on the PECs course... then you would have evidence of what is was supposed to be, so you would be able to express an opinion on what they are doing. They should also be able to give you overview of why/when it does work/help.

PS I am not anti PECs, IYSWIM, I know it is great for some, but one size fits all it is not..

yes - it is not about being anti pecs or anti signing or pro whatever. It is about looking at how the child best communicates functionally for his or her own life. I will ask for evidence that PECS can lead to measurable improvements for verbal children.

I think the main problem with PECs, even for people who support it fully and have used and researched it extensively, is that it is implemented badly 95% of the time, or maybe even 99%. It is supposed to be a PRECURSOR to speech, but often the numbskulls who have invaded our special schools use it as an ALTERNATIVE to speech. I vividly remember seeing a five year old boy ask for "juice " quite clearly, and being told by a distracted SEN teacher "no, Joey, use your PECs card". At that point, I knew for sure that the world of SEN had gone mad! I also told the SALT who insisted on using PECs (wrongly and badly) for a year with my son, that the huge difficulties he had in actually physically producing speech, plus the absolute lack of a social desire or motivation to speak, made PECs unsuitable for him, as he would grasp hungrily at ANYTHING that gave him a reason not to have to produce words. He is now producing words, lots of them, and I am pleased I didn't go with PECs. Not sure if that helps, but just my personal experience.

If you go on a website called ReseachAutism, and scroll through to PECs and then to Research, there are quite a few studies named. You would have to trawl through to find one that deals with whether PECs helps older, more verbal children. HTH

Well I don't want to find a paper like that ! I want to say there is no credible independent research to back PECs use with ds