Processing Speed Below 1st %ile High IQ??

[Babs17]

Hope someone can help.

DS has loads of difficulty learning and always has, but we can tell he is bright.

Assessment showed IQ in 95 percentile, but processing speed couldn't really be recorded as was below 1st percentile!!!

Obviously we now know why he struggles so much.

He has to work at least 5 times as hard as an "average" child to get average and below average scores, and he simply cannot sustain this for more than about 20 minutes twice a day. So he is falling further and further behind. Even when he has finished sokme work he is affected for at least another hour or even 2 or 3 hrs depedning what he was working on.

I have seen this problem compared to road works on a 6 lane motorway - and that is exactly how it seems.

Assessor indicated that there is very litle to be done about processing speed but that the online programs foir this are the best chance we have really. Quite sad.

Have seen jungle memory (or something) and may try it but the time that he would have to spend doing the tasks each day will have an impact on the rest of his life for the duration of the program - so is it worth it, is it that good?

Can anyone offer any advice?

Do the online "brain training" programs actually help in your experience?

Sorry don't have any answers but bumping as would also be interested in replies from other posters (ds has similar profile re intelligence vs processing speed although not as extreme as your ds)

Babs17
I do understand where you are coming from, but the Assessor has only told you that there is an information processing deficit which is a bit like being told that you are dyslexic, without being told about the type or type of underlying cognitive information processing deficit or deficits that are causing the processing speed problems.
The Assessor may not be adequately qualified to provide a diagnosis of any of the medical issues which can cause information processing problems, but should be able to refer you to the correct group of professionals for a multi - discipline (professional) assessment.

Personally all of my family have Auditory Processing Disorder, which means that we have problems processing auditory information, such as speech, which includes problems processing conversations and verbal instructions. But this is only one of the many cognitive deficits which can cause processing speed problems.

Thsoe who have these types of disability, have to develop coping strategies to compensate and work around the cognitive deficit. These coping strategies are run in the working memory (short term memory) which like the RAM of a computer has limited capacity. So to prevent a crash we subconsciously priorities how we use our working memories and if we need to run one or more coping strategies then something else has to make way, usually our self organisation abilities. And even then our coping strategies will have to make way when we need to cope with stress or an illness.

Brain training programs can not cure any underlying cognitive deficit or disoder, they can only suggest alternative ways of working around the deficits, which can be very hit or miss as they coping strategies they are suggesting many not be within your cognitive capabilities.

just marking my place - i'm assuming the iq testing etc was done as part of ed psych assessment? how old is he?

dd2 was assessed as having iq of 142, and everything except processing speed was in the superior range - her processing speed was well below average though. (she has brain damage due to birth hypoxia and a cp dx)

she has obviously developed some strategies, but we don't know what they are or how. and we're not sure how much of it is a processing delay, or a combination of processing and motor delays...

anyway, just marking spot to see if anything interesting crops up!

QUOTE: "Thsoe who have these types of disability, have to develop coping strategies to compensate and work around the cognitive deficit. These coping strategies are run in the working memory (short term memory) which like the RAM of a computer has limited capacity. "

What I really really want to do is see if there is a way to improve the underlying problem/processing speed issue rather than focus on work arounds. Work arounds have a place but with processing speed as poor as this, work arounds dont leave much brain power left over for learning and doing.

ds is Year 6

Thank you for listening as getting so disheartened with people implying ds is not trying or is pulling a fast one on me, because if you talk to him you can hardly ever tell.

madwoman, yes your dd does seem to have some strategies or else performance would have been much worse?

As far as I can tell this is the same problem as DD has.

We found out she has 'slow auditory processing' which we have vastly improved through auditory integration training and is also cross dominant (left eyed but right handed) which causes slow visual processing. That was helped somewhat by vision therapy

We have only just finished the AIT so it's a bit too early to say if it's cured all her problems, but she is definately vastly improved.

We also found Omega Fish Oil helped a lot.

Another one here with a dd with these problems. She was assessed as being 1st centile for her understanding of language but above average for her age for her cognitive ability when language is out of the equation. Which of course it never can be fully. She is amazing at working things out though, puzzles that kind of thing.

It seems so cruel doesn't it though, DD is just seeming to become more aware of her probelms-her speech and language is even further behind than her understanding.

I'm also interested in this thread because i think my ds has processing problems, unfortunately I too have no answers as yet.

Because he is 3 and non-verbal, it seems it is too hard to assess him for a lot of the programmes. I'm hoping to start a listening therapy in the next few months but don't know which one to choose, and my gut feeling is he would benefit from vision therapy too, if he could do the exercises.

Has anyone read Disconnected Kids by Robert Melillo and followed the exercises?

I haven't read it yet but am planning to give that a try too.

indigo - how did you find about the cross dominance thing? v curious about this - dd2 is left handed but we suspect this is because of the pattern of brain damage she has, but she has also had a long term squint which was operated on last year. no-one has seemed interested about the dominance thing?

we had to train everyone who came into contact with her in the observe/ wait/ listen thing, as there would be no immediate response to suggest she had heard/ understood/ was attempting to respond. i used to say to people - wait until you are convinced she isn't going to respond, then count to ten slowly, then repeat or move on. it was as though there was a literal time delay. she has improved vastly over the last few years...

again it is unclear whether the issues were due to physical difficulties or processing though - we were intitially told she was unlikely to become verbal due her poor oromotor skills. we've really assumed over the years that it was her physical/ motor issues that were the main problem, so we were quite surprised with the assessment results.

i don't know that much about processing difficulties - has anyone got good basic links?

JoMaman - haven't heard of Disconnected Kids before. Just ordered it now

However it very much looks like the retained reflex stuff that I'm a huge fan of.

There have been so many programs / treatments centring around this stuff, plus my experiences with DS and DD that I'm inclined to believe in it.

MadWomen - both the behaviour optometrist and the sound learning centre told us about cross dominance. I don't think it can be removed or cured - but both the vision therapy and the auditory integration training definately improved her slow processing.

DDs processing was so slow that she couldn't learn to read - but now for the first time ever (she's in Y3) she's starting to make progress.

I have never managed to find anything online about 'slow processing' - but just stumbled across these treatments that luckily have worked.

dd2 has retained reflexes too - again, something that we 'know' but haven't really done much about. (might be this summer's project as it's now hampering her with swimming and dance )

going to have a look at disconnected kids.

I bought a copy of disconnected kids a few weeks ago, but got bogged down in it to be honest. If you can follow it once it starts on the part where you try and decide which issues affect your particular child then perhaps it could be helpful.

"Work arounds have a place but with processing speed as poor as this, work arounds dont leave much brain power left over for learning and doing."

I actually disagree with this sentiment...

If you think of methods we show children, in say, Mathematics, they are rarely the 'quickest' way of doing things.

For instance, if we want to know what the answer to "3 apples cost 2 pence each, and 1 banana costs 5 pence. How much would I need to spend?", we would quickly be able to work out in our head that the answer is 11.

However, we would teach the children to do this:

3x2=6
1x5=5
6+5=11.

We don't teach them those methods because they are 'quick'. We teach them because it lays a good foundation for trickier sums. If the method is right, then they can break down any task.

Processing issues really come out when the thing to be processed is more difficult.

I know that if I am trying to think about things that are just day to day routine things, I can hold many many thoughts in my mind at once. What am I doing for dinner? Will DD1 get in from school early or later, is DD3 going to be tired and grouchy?, etc.

But if I was trying to think of a complex subject like the country's finances, and the banking crisis, and the benefits reforms, I might find it harder to think about 3 things at once.

I think the very KEY to Processing difficulties lies in taking away the processing. Make the processing easier, by reducing the amount that needs to BE processed.

Very visual techniques, used in TEACHH (I know loads of posters here hate it, but I was talking to my DD1's Outreach teacher yesterday, and I saw the real value of TEACHH as it is meant to be done - inspirational). Take away the mystery, the massive processing.

So, first, perhaps, focus on breaking down tasks into discrete sections. Make sure that your DS isn't having to try and remember what might be next after the current task. Think of it as this: He has 4 'bars' of processing. If he is worrying about the next task, he might only have 2 'bars' reserved for the current task. So make sure that he is able to use all 4 'bars' on the current task. One way to do that is to use a 'work station inbox'. His own in-tray with an out-tray. Each task put in a separate tray, so that he can simply work his way through the tasks.

Build up his confidence, by setting tasks that you KNOW he can do. And take away any 'red herrings'. So, for instance, if a child was at the level of ordering numbers, you would give a task that had the numbers 1-5 on one side, and spaces on the other. No extra numbers. Just keep it simple. Then the child focuses on what needs to be done.

I know that short-term, work arounds seem to be a hinderance. But long-term, they can be really successful.

Babs, I do Vision Therapy with kids who have visual processing problems. Quite frequently they also have visual-auditory processing problems and even full blown Sensory Processing Disorder (my own ds1 has this as well). I have helped many children, including my own son to overcome most of their difficulties in these areas.

I would urge you to get an evaluation by a Develop-mental/Behavioral Optometrist. You should be able to find someone in your area here

HTH

jabber

I just wanted to say that it can get better with age

My DS is now 15 years old and when he was assessed by the same Ed psych in Junior school then again a couple of years ago the profile was the same SLOW PROCESSING and also very high IQ

BUT he had developed ways of making the speaking part of the processing seem much quicker ~ you can now ask him a question and it will take him a bit longer to answer but he will say ummmmm or errrrr so that the person asking the question knows he is thinking

At Junior school the teacher would ask him a question 6x7= ? then go to another child with a different question 8x4= ? then come back to DS so that he had had enough time to work out the answer IYSWIM

He still needs extra time in his GCSE exams to allow for the "thinking time"

My advice would be to get help early and you will hopefully see improvement and/or the child will learn coping stratagies to help themselves

Good luck

Lougle - I think the very KEY to Processing difficulties lies in taking away the processing

This is not a great long term solution. This is still just compensating and working around - compensating and working around something that can be improved.

DD could not process stuff fast enough to be able to read fluently. So she was stuck for a year and a half on trying to blend 3 letter sounds. ' c ' - ' u ' - ' p ', 'c'-'u'-'p', cup?

She was just not able to read fluently - even though she knew how to - because she could not blend the sounds in any kind of reasonable time frame. There was no way to break this task down to an easier task. In the end to read you have to be able to recall the letter and grapheme sounds, then blend them together. You can't simplify it below that.

She was stuck at this stage for a year and a half - until we did the above mentioned therapies.

She would have never leant to read if we had not managed to improve her slow processing.

work arounds are better than nothing, but given the apparent scale of the problem, he will never ever get remotely close to not struggling with simple things just by using work arounds.

does any of this help me pinpint where the problem lies - I think it's something to do with the rapid naming and alternate rapid naming - basically a page of numbers, letters, coloured squares, simple silhouettes - time taken and accuracy is noted.

standard or average score in all aspects is 10

phonological awareness combined = 50%ile
blending 12 (above average)
elision (segmenting) 8 (below average - no surprise as requires extra mental steps compared with blending)

phonological memory combined = 92%ile
digit memory 11 (little above average)
nonword repetition 16 (vastly superior - why would this be?)

rapid naming combined = 12%ile!
rapid digit naming 6
rapid letter naming 8

alternate rapid naming combined =

None of this helps pinpoint the problem - because it's only measuring the symptoms not the cause.

To find out if he has vision problems you need to go to a behaviour optometrist. ( Opticians don't test for this stuff)

TO find out if he has auditory processing you need to go to the sound learning centre. (Audiologists don't test for this stuff)

Also, I forgot to say, try Omega Fish Oil, they also made a huge diff to DDs processing speed.

I needed to do all of the above to get DD working at a normal level - because she had 3 diff problems, not one.

We're starting retained reflex therapy with her in the summer holidays - because you need to do AIT and then wait 3 months before starting retained reflex therapy.

If you look at my posts from Christmas I was in absolute despair. I was convinced she would never ever be able to read because her processing was so slow. And now for the first time ever she's starting to do fine.

The EP told me there was nothing that could be done. The SENCO told me they were doing everything they could. - And in a way they were both right. School and EPs can't help these problems.

But luckily you can.

I second the primitive reflex integration therapy. At my office we include it in with Vision Therapy but I don't think that is standard. Try the BABO site I linked to in my earlier post to find some behavioral/developmental optometrists in your area. I believe that this is a critical starting point.

lougle - thank you for your post, am going to read it again now not feeling quite so frustrated today!

how would I have any idea whether the problem is more likely visual or more likely auditory?

since i dont know what either means in this context, if you asked I would have said it's neither, but that it's a thinking problem - a problem getting information processed and uploaded into the brain, and another similar (but different) problem getting it out again - I think it doesnt much matter what form the informtion takes, but I could be wrong as I dont know what i'm looking for

Well, I am talking out of my thoughts, here, not through training, but I guess you would find out by seeing what actually works. When you find that all the things that work involve visual clues, you might conclude that the issue is in auditory information. Likewise, if you found that he was really slow on tasks that involved picking out information from a picture, but could quickly work out riddles, you would conclude naturally that he found it hard to cope with visual information.

My DH has real trouble answering questions that form part of a longer sentence. He often answers a different, or even opposite question to the one asked. I suspect that he has trouble picking out the 'important' information in a question, and doesn't know what to work on. But, he is EXCELLENT at reading maps and interpreting diagrams. He can glance at a map and say 'well you're heading North East, so blah blah blah (not where my skill lies )

lougle, that makes sense. dd2 doesn't have any problems with reading, and can pick out patterns in series, (and all the other assessment stuff) but has trouble with verbal questioning and response... so from that it seems fairly obvious that i need to read up on auditory processing. (which is kind of interesting, given that one of her retained reflexes is still the moro at unexpected noises )

Hi

I have a question re costs - do you have to pay to see an Optromist? Or is it like the free eye test available to all children?

I have to keep an eye on my son's eyesight anyway as my own is so abysmal and we are a family of dyslexics. I'd never thought of taking to anything but the standard high st optician though, despite being under the eye hospital for most of my own childhood. You guys have me thinking this is definately worth screening out as an issue for him.

Can anyone reccomend any behaviour optometrists in the London area?

The standard part of the eye test is free, and then you have to pay for the important part of the eye test. We paid £70 for DDs eyetest + £20 for bifocal glasses.

Then the vision therapy was £250.

There are some in London listed here

We went to blackstones

I cannot believe this website that I have just come across.

I have spent hours and hours hunting for imformation about my sons situation and how to help him. Mostly finding nothing much.

This has blown me away. It is absolutely nothing to do with specific leaning difficulties but so abvsolutely close to some of my sons difficulties and learning experiences it is incredible.

Please have a read and watch some of the tutorial videos and dont be put off by the actual function nof the website!

Let me know what you think

www.projectlearnet.org/tutorials.html

hope link works okay

basically most of the pages on that site seem to directly tackle how to work with the many outcomes and difficulties the child is faced with when having slow processing speed and simnilar