Another one about ASD and consequences... anyone wiser than me would you kindly step in please?

[MrsShrekTheThird]

I've just been reading a few other threads along similar lines but not managed to quite get the info I'm looking for.
DS1 is 10, and after a torrent of abusive language, swearing [interim warnings from me and DH along the lines of "you need to stop saying bla"] more very 'high' screeching and then angry obscene swearing and threats to kill everyone in our house - he ignored the many recommedations to stop and think, warnings that there would be consequences [specific], he carried on and so the consequence has had to be carried out. The thing is, losing a 'video night' this evening hasn't bothered ds2 (and it wasn't ds2's fault, but he was guilty of egging ds1 on and laughing at all the swearing, so met the same consequence) but I just feel that for DS1 the disruption to routine is an enormous thing and he's now been screaming for the best part of two hours :( Partly he's cross at it all, and obv a significant thing is that the day/evening isn't going as planned - so disruption to routine which causes meltdown.

I feel like we had no option but to make a consequence for the attrocious language, and after explanations and straightforward rules [yes he does know it's wrong, it's why he carried on, he said "I want trouble"] we couldn't be seen to be letting it go.
How do the rest of you deal with this? DH is sitting with him (not to have conversation, just to be with him) and I've no idea what else we're supposed to do to make sure there are consequences - but not ones that send him over the edge.

No advvice really, but don't want to ignore as I understand where you're coming from. Ds2 is 7 and although we can still manage him ok atm, this is exactly the sort of behaviour we get from him, so you're by no means alone! I am expecting his use of bad language to get worse as he gets older and his threats to become stronger as he becomes more aware and stronger. The high pitched screaming is very, very hard to deal with. I would still carry this through though (with ds2 because I know him) and let him scream. When he eventually calms down (and he has to run out of steam eventually), will he accept that his behaviour was wrong? Ds2 will, but not while it's actually affecting him and his routine or what he's engaged in.

thank you aero :)

As you say, he's running out of steam now and he's just sobbing to himself.
I think in effect I need to know how to make sure the consequences stand, but whether there's a better way of doing it than withdrawing something that's planned. Depriving a mainstream child of something would be the way to get them to understand, but with a child with ASD thinking it's an enormous punishment and it doesn't end up seeming in proportion iyswim.

It's so hard to know if you are doing right. Sorry I have no practical advice, you sound like you did the best you could.

One of those threads is mine (about punishment at school) and I just don't know what to do.

All children are naughty sometimes, so that must mean dcs with asd are naughty sometimes too. But telling which bits are naughty and which asd is bothering me.

And even if you are sure it is naughty how do you manage it? do the sanctions you would apply to nt kids work with asd kids??

Sorry I have raised more questions.

My ds is only 6 but went through a phase of swearing all the time and very loudly in public, we were advised to ignore it and distract him. Sounds simple but it worked. Now when he wants to swear he says 'I want to say a naughty word ' and mutters 'shit' or whatever to himself. This is happening less and less and is one thing no longer mentioned by school anymore!

Beyond that I really don't know. It's so hard though, don't beat yourself up about it. Does he understand WHY he shouldn't swear?

I think we're asking the same stuff tbh. It's so difficult to see the wood for the trees and all that. With this particular episode I'm pretty certain DS1 knew very well that the swearing and screeching were out of order, and he was pushing all the buttons he could to get a reaction. Thing is, it didn't make me or DH respond in the way he wanted, we just withdrew a treat. It's how extreme that appears to be as a 'punishment' to a child with ASD that bothers me. But on the whole I think we're in very similar scenarios and it's so easy to feel like you've got it "wrong" parenting these kids a lot of the time.

x posted with you lambskin, yes he understood and because his younger brother thought the whole thing was hilarious (we got ds2 out of the way asap but still the response had been got!) he carried it on. [and on and on!!] It will take a lot of work to get ds2 who is 7 and dd who's 5 to ignore their brother. We've talked a lot to them about making good choices for themselves and trying to get away from him when they think he's doing something that isn't good. Tricky situation without giving the little ones too much responsibility. We get them away from incidents asap but not always quick enough - if someone's laughed at him or encouraged him then it gives him a massive amount of energy to buzz on!

My two don't get consequences because they can't grasp the link.
What I do is offer an alternative and reward for making the right choice (they grasp rewards) So in that situation I'd have said "no swearing at mum and dad, you can choose to swear in your room though" If ds went to his room I'd go through when he had calmed down and say "well done for choosing to go to your room" and would reward him.
If he chose not to go to his room I'd say "mum and dad are not listening to you swear we will go in the other room, when you have finished swearing you can come to us" When he came through then I wouldn't mention the swearing but he wouldn't get a reward because he didn't make the right choice.
My two know that "you can choose" means I am offering them a way to stop the behaviour and get a reward.
Not aying it's easy or would work for everybody but it is very successful here and prevents the explosion of rage.

Am liking that, asdx2. We talk to all three of the dc about making the right choices, choosing the behaviour that's expected, all that sort of stuff. It's another step in that direction and it does seem to be more appropriate, and far far more positive than this evening's experience. Thank you so much for sharing your ideas, I will definitely have a go. He likes earning rewards, stars and stuff, and the 'treat' that arrives when he's earned a few stickers or stars. It would also be an easy system to include the other two [mainstream] dc in, as we like equality round here

It's one thing for me to talk about my ds whose 6 and quite another when it's relating to your ds who's 10. He must be holding so much in through the day that when he gets home, somewhere he feels safe, he let's it all out because he knows you love him.

It's awful when they get into that state where you can't reach them, especially with the added pressure of the younger dc to think of. I think asdx2' s advice is good, making own choices gives him control which he may feel he doesn't have.

i think asdx2's advice is good. I am going to try it at home and see if school can implement something along these lines.

It has worked for us ds was described as having extreme challenging behaviour at dx at 3 (probably because he managed to draw blood on every professional involved and the poor SALT had to dodge a bedside table launched at her down the stairs as she came through the door ) Now he is very well behaved and chooses to remove himself from a situation rather than lash out.

What rewards would you use asdx2? and what age is your ds now?

Ds is 16 now and nothing like the terror he was. We have used the things that he has liked at the time so stickers, marbles, pennnies, yu gi oh cards, (he doesn't eat sweets or chocolate) spinners (packs of ten party bag toys) a thumbs up. Nowadays he gets a well done and the knowledge that some "well dones" will get him his monthly magazine is enough.Nothing expensive and ds never grasped that 10 stickers would get something substantial so it had to be something he valued himself.

you're a wise one asdx2 :) [can you write the book please ?!!] DS1 is DF so doesn't have chocolate etc either and very little in the way of sweets, he does 'get' the idea of stickers and then choosing to go somewhere like a particular trip out to a play centre or get a magazine at the weekend.

We are very similar to Asdx2 .. Rewarding good choices.. But we also use visual red and yellow cards for when ds isn't recognising his behaviour.. And use an emotional traffic light system so he has ( and still is) learning at which point to remove himself by himself.

We also go over what happened using the justice system ( tony attwood)... Which is very very useful.

We are generally having to prompt less and less and ds has even started to try and repair the situation of his own accord... ( saying sorry for 'x' and trying to explain what set it off).

However today he was just being naughty... And basiscally anti social .. ( intentionally anti social.. Rather than can't help social issues)... He got immediatly sent away until he was ready to be reasonable ( and he needed to choose when that was).. Well he bounced into the family room and was straight away yuk again.. And again.. And again.. And we just sent him away each time and let him try again... When eventually he did a good job.. I sat with him and asked about his new starwars toys he got this morning and helped him sort them out :)

having said that ... We dothe same with ds1 (15) and dd (7) who are both NT.. If you are pleasant in this house then there are lots of pleasant things and a very helpful and interested mum and dad... If your not ... Go away until you can be.

MrsShrek I just learnt as I went along and got inventive because the standard ways never worked with ds. If he ever felt that I was trying to stop him he'd up his game but if he thought he had chosen to do something different then that was all well and good. We have sorted everything from extreme aggression and destruction to deliberate wetting and escaping without punishment but by breaking it down and rewarding every step of the way.

Interesting to read this. DS2 is 4yo and does not understand consequences at all. He does, however, understand rewards, so that is also what we focus on. I will admit that I felt like I was banging my head against a wall trying to get him to understand the idea of consequences, but it seems this is a common thing then?

i tried the conseq way and DS didnt grasp it at all and once hes in the "zone" nothing mattered he would be in too much of a heightend state sometimes to know you exist let alone anything else but it depends where and what hes doing if i still try to use this , but ive been advised to ignore and distract a lot of undesirable behaviours as basically they dont believe at SS we should be punishing for behaviours that are traits/and all part and parcel of the disorder however annoying and embarrassing they are so im starting to do same as obviously you've got to continue with same way they are handling such things in school , having said that each to his own you can but try and what works for one may not for another, whatever we do it has to be short and in the now not later or tomorrow as this is just not undersrood at all for my DS

Seems a lot of us are in similar places...
ds1 was only diagnosed a fortnight ago, and although we've 'known' for a long time, it obviously explains a lot know we know the full scale of his difficulties, and understand a lot more because of it.

ASDx2 I've talked to him about choices again, and the clear outline that you give about responding straight away and making a good decision to calm himself (we have to be a bit careful about how we use the word 'choice' as this in itself can make him anxious because he thinks he has to 'pick' something iyswim). He understood straight away and gave me examples of what he could do and when. As the notion of making good choices is something we already use to promote respect for each other etc it fits in well, and it's an extension of what we already do that really feels "right". Thank you so much asdx2 for your fantastic advice, that awful one-off situation on saturday evening will not have to happen again :)

Really glad it's helped Mrs Shrek. Sometimes someone looking in has a clearer picture that's all.
I was "lucky" I suppose ds was dx'ed at three and dd at two so behaviours didn't get ingrained for years before they were addressed. Also having the label meant I got something to research early on and appropriate advice when needed.
It sounds really positive that ds can see the benefits and is even able to make suggestions. If he feels he has had some input then there is an even bigger incentive for him to comply too.
Wishing you all the very best and if I can help another time just shout.

thank you - and you've just nearly made me cry