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Personality? Misbehaviour or his Asperger's?

12 replies

Solo2 · 08/02/2011 14:38

DS2 aged 9 has Asperger's traits (high functioning) and whilst never fully reaching the criteria for a diagnosis, clearly has many aspects akin to this.

He is becoming increasingly difficult as he heads towards 10 yrs old - but only in the home environment (he's perfect at school)and I'm not sure if this is just his personality, as he approaches pubertyor naughtiness/ testing boundaries or another manifestation of Asperger's?

Can anyone help me? Here's how it goes:

He will deliberately do something he knows he shouldn't and that will annoy me, get him into trouble/ told off by me and then manipulate the situation so that it's me who is in the wrong/ "has been horrible to him", losing sight completely of how he started the situation with his inappropriate behaviour.

It then becomes nigh on impossible to stay with the central issue - ie that he did wrong, deliberately and needs to apologise and acknowledge what he's done. Instead, it becomes all about how upset and angry he is with me for telling him off/ stopping him doing something etc etc. He wants then to force an apology from me and at the very most, will say we were BOTH wrong!

I don't know if he really and truly just doesn't 'get it' - that he started the situation by doing wrong - or if he's being deliberately manipulative as he hates admitting he's ever in the wrong/ less than perfect etc etc - which in any case, is also an aspect of his Asperger's?

As his NT twin brother witnesses this, I find it difficult to know how much leeway to give DS2 as he has Asperger's traits or how much to stay with how I'd respomd if this were his twin misbehaving. DS1 gets fed up with DS2 spoiling family life but also gets v v upset when his twin is angry/ upset about being told off!

I can't win!

OP posts:
bigbluebus · 08/02/2011 14:57

Solo your DS sounds very much like my DS (14) except that my DS is not perfect at school!! He was given a label of HF ASD at 7 (although they admitted that they couldn't be certain but didn't know what else to label him!). At least it got him a statement and the school off my back constantly. At 12 he was reassessed for Aspergers but didn't quite meet criteria for that label. I have looked for other labels as his seeming obsession with doing things he is well aware he shouldn't do just to wind people up, drives me mad. He could argue the hind legs off a donkey and we too often reach stalemate when he is told off with him refusing to apologise and expecting me to apologise to him first. We often lose site of what the original telling off was about as it escalates into a big argument. Incidentally his English teacher at parents evening sad his debating skills were excellent - so it has its uses!

Can only offer empathy really as I don't have added complication of twin brother (DD has PMLD and doesn't do bad behaviour).

Ineedalife · 08/02/2011 15:21

Blimey your Ds sounds like my Dd1[she is 22 now] but when she was 9 she was alomost DXed ADHD, I now believe she has AS but she is unlikely to get a dx.

I also have Dd3 who is very similar but her behaviour is no where near as challenging, having Dd3 who is more ASD than Dd1 has forced me to find out more about the spectrum and what it can mean for us.

I believe and someone could well shoot me down for this, that Theory of Mind has alot to answer for in these behaviour situations.
Dd1 and 3 are completely unable to put themselves into another persons shoes and be able to understand how their behaviour affects the other people around them. I also think it affects their ability to learn from their own mistakes becasue they are unable to appy one situation to another.

My girls never apologise and really never understand why I am upset with them.

Dd1 won debating competions when she was at secondary and I think this is because she has no idea that other peoples opinions matterSmile.

Dd2 is stuck in the middle of all this and is as NT as they come. I feel for her and try to compensate but its not easy.

Sorry this is so long and I hope you feel a bit better knowing you are not alone.

Good luck Smile

tabulahrasa · 08/02/2011 15:28

I have to say that I don't give my DS anymore leeway than my DD - more explanation of why something is unacceptable maybe, but he doesn't get away with anymore than she does

how does he change it from being told off to telling you that you're wrong or whatever?

Solo2 · 08/02/2011 18:23

Thanks. Not sure whether DS2 has some 'theory of mind' as he does seem to behave differently outside of the home, which is why it's so confusing to know what to make of him right now. When he was aged 4, at school )and alos now too) he was known as someone who was very kind and helpful and once helped to pick up the headmistress off the playground - who'd slipped on the ice - and kissed her arm!

This made me think he must have a full understanding of others' feelings. He also even now at age 9 spontaneously comes out with the kind of thing teachers and adults love - like "Oh Mr X (his headmaster)! You look 20 years younger today!"

However, at home, he can be downright atrocious to me (I'm the only parent). He will show off arrogantly to his twin about his academic talents and sneer at him. He will use back against me comments I've made to him in the midst of his bad behaviour that would fit HIS behaviour but not mine at all (not that I'm perfect parent by any means!)

How he changes things round is that I'll say something like, "DS2 - you deliberately emptied the wheelbarrow of all those leaves I spent the entire hour clearing up. Pick them up now!" (This was a RL argument last w/e) He then tries to storm off....several minutes down the line, he's finally picking up the leaves that he deliberately - and with relish - emptied all over the lawn...but the entire time saying, "Shut-up! Shut-up!" v loudly to me and also some words I won't repeat here.

I say, "Right! If you say that once more, I'll not let you go on your computer for the rest of the day!" So he says it again and again and is storming off. I go to disconnect his PC and that's when he starts to add things like, "You're so horrible to me! You're so rude to me! You're doing that on purpose!" - ie as if he's turning around the reality of the situation and trying to project it back onto me and blame me.

I get more angry and I'm afraid raise my voice to him. He gets furious. I tell him to go into the house and he does so in fury. He starts going on and on about how I've upset him. I've ruined the family afternoon - stuff that I've said to him by that time, as his twin is upset that the afternoon is indeed ruined once again by DS2.

Basically, it's as if he hears and takes on board that someone has done something deliberately wrong and then been rude and upsetting - but can't take on board that this person is him - and so turns it around and makes it my fault.

I don't know if the above is a good enough example of this but even his twin has noticed that DS2 will never admit fault and always then blames the one HE'S hurt for starting the upset.

Another thing he does is he'll get incredibly upset and tearful if losing at a boxed game. DS1 and I will then allow him to win or not to lose so badly, as DS2 really can't seem to cope with losing at all. But when we play another game that DS2 is good at, eg Scrabble, he'll be showing off, sneering at his twin, chanting how brilliant he is and how we're stupid.

When I berate him and remind him how it feels not to be winning and how his twin and I have often allowed him to win, again, he doesn't see to 'translate' this into the realisation that hurting others, especially when they've been lovely to you, isn't right and makes people feel sad and angry in the same way he might feel sad and angry.

If this kind of thing is context dependent, is this therefore not Asperger's traits - or is it that he hides his authentic (Asperger's) self more outside the home and has learned, by copying and mechanically, how to act charmingly and politely in contexts where his 'safe person' - me - isn't there?

OP posts:
tabulahrasa · 08/02/2011 22:31

hmm, a bit of both probably, lol

the swearing and what have you while he does what you've asked is really common in schools - the advice you get is to ignore the secondary behaviour or it'll escalate the situation

but hard to do when it's your own child...

to me that seems like he's trying to get out of cleaning the leaves up, even if that means he ends up in an argument

him saying your phrases is probably to do with the Asperger's (not saying the first bit is definitely not, just that it's not uncommon) that's him telling you that he's happy about you telling him off - I mean obviously, lol, but that he's using what you've said probably means he doesn't know how to express his emotions, so he uses your words if you see what I mean

the not being able to translate his not liking to lose with upsetting his brother is definitely an Asperger's trait showing itself - I've no advice there really except trying different ways to explain to him how it makes his brother feel and why that's not ok, maybe a social story might help?

My son definitely shows different levels of traits in different situations if that's any help to you, lol

I'd look at how you handle situations not that I think you're doing anything wrong, just that obviously it's not working as you're ending up in a shouting match and not very happy about it.

If he often escalates things with bad language for instance, could you maybe set up a swear jar explain the rules and the next time he does it, ignore it till he's finished then apply the sanction when it's a bit calmer - at the end of the day or something, it wouldn't need to be money, it could be a privilege that's removed, but a set one if you see what I mean - that would then stop it turning into a full scale battle

that's a load of waffle really, I don't know if any of it is particularly insightful - sorry, lol

Lokovatoress · 08/02/2011 22:49

Solo, this is just so much like my high functioning AS DS. Really, these are all the markers. My DS was not perfect at school before the dx, but he was really holding it in until he got home. At home after school - total meltdown.

I agree with Ineedalife. The key thing about ASD in my opinion is Theory of Mind - or lack of it. They explain it on the MAS Help programme. Basically ASD do not understand what /how other people think and interpret situations. It's like mentally they are in a different place compared to where you are - same room but different furniture. Your DS probably does not understand the effect of his behaviours on you

Your DS is moody and insensitive at home because he feels its home, he can relax, be himself. Being "perfect" is extremely hard and stressful work for AS. AS can't wear the mask 24 hours. If he was an AS, he might think that you are the person with whom he can relax, you really know and understand him, so he does not need to do those painful niceties and just say it to you in a family way... The context in which he places his words and actions is different to your context and he is totally unaware of this. For example what he is saying makes sense in the context of the conversation you had 3 years ago. He is repeating what he learned then. He expects you to understand and remember all things significant to him (because he knows you love him). He does not want to re-explain to you things he said (or you said to him) 3 years ago. He does not understand that you do not understand why he is doing this. It is upsetting. For him you should remember the situation 3 years ago and understand that it is relevant right now. It is still vivid in his mind, even if it was dull. He remembers everything. He has no clue that you are in a totally different mental place.

He seems seeking attention (the leaves etc), your attention, he is probably calling for your help!

There is another thread "A question about Asperger" - there are many postings by high functioning AS mums.

mumslife · 09/02/2011 08:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bullet234 · 09/02/2011 09:23

I had the exact opposite in that when I was being told off I would just stand there saying nothing. Part of that was my Aspergers and part was my parents who made it clear that arguing back had severe consequences. Please don't take that to read that I'm saying that's all you need to do. It took me until I was 16 to shout back at my dad that I was not stupid or a cretin.
I tend to go for a balance with Ds1 when he's getting angry or upset over something. Keep my voice calm and say things like "that may be, but you are going to go to your room to calm down." I use the time after he's settled to talk to him about his behaviour, when he's upset it does neither of us any good to be exacerbating the situation.
Incidentally that confidence in intelligence can also be seen in my dad, who comes close to the spectrum. He is very academically clever and also practically/commonsense clever as well. I can still remember him saying to my mum: "you are not as clever as me. You are as clever as the girls" (we were all mid to late teens then), "but you are not as clever as me". In some ways he fits more the stereotypical traits of a person with Aspergers being blunt and forthright than I do, but he has less impairments/difficulties than myself.

mary21 · 09/02/2011 12:02

Hi Solo

Whether this behaviour is due to Asd is in some ways imaterial. It is unacceptable and needs to be addressed . It may also be cnntributing to your other sons problems at school.
With things like playing games he loves to win. it might be helpful to tell him in a calm, not game playing time that it is not good behaviour to crow . it he starts the game will terminate straight away . Do exactly that. no second chances. if he plays well dont compliment him for winning, compliment him for staying focused on the game. With loosing , tell him prior to the game he can leave at anytime but if he does he must leave the room and do something else straight away. Again no persuading or cajolling. We find writing rules like this down helps. It makes them more official.
As a parent of a son with Aspergers who was Mr perfect at school in primary. We were told prefect behaviour is itself a behaviour problem!! Books that might be helpful are "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. " And The way of boys.
Kids with ASD's often need very fixed boundaries which are harder to have at home

tabulahrasa · 09/02/2011 12:13

yeah rules and clear consequences I find are really important, we had a period where my DS thought it was absolutely fine to hit my DD (not saying he doesn't ever now, but not in the same way) and it was no use punishing him while I was angry - it just turned into a shouting match

talking to him at another time about why it's not acceptable to punch a girl 4 years younger than you and what would happen if he did meant that the next time he did it I could calmly tell him what was going to happen as we'd discussed earlier and ignore any argument about why he had hit her - I don't care, you know you should have told me, it doesn't make it ok and I warned you this is what would happen etc... rather than reacting like a screeching harridan, rofl

I find I have to explain everything, in minute detail with him and sometimes when I think I'm being clear, actually I'm not

LaydeeC · 09/02/2011 18:00

Sounds a lot like my 13yo with AS (diagnosed at 6yo).
Totally compliant and placid at school but immediate meltdown after school - often kicking and punching me on the way home.
I ponder this question continuously - is it the autism or him pushing the boundaries constantly. On balance, I think it is the ASD - as no child would surely want to be continuously told off - would they?
My son also cannot possibly conceive that he might be the 'cause' of an argument/situation. He has zero empathy, and I mean zero. He is totally unable to put himself in another's position. And when you try to reason with him, he is just soooo literal - it's like banging your head against a brick wall. And as for the elephant like memory....

flyingmum · 09/02/2011 19:20

Is it worth writing him a couple of social stories in which you weave in how it makes other people feel. You could draw it as a comic book style thing with thought bubbles and get him to put in what he thinks his brother is thinking and what you are thinking.

I think clear consistent boundaries and don't let him manipulate at all. Is it worth talking to him when he is not being revolting and asking him why he does things like empties out the leaves. Was it for attention, is he very angry about something? I work with a bunch of kids who have manipulated all their lives. One is off the scale now he is 13 both at home and at school - I think he runs the house and his behaviour is now extreme. I think you other son also needs to know that you back him up. As someone else has suggested - the game ends when one nasty comment comes out.

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