ASD and empathy

[moosemama]

So, I have had three people say to me in the past two days, that if ds has AS he can't feel empathy and its really got to me, as I feel its doing ds and other people with ASD a disservice. (Admittedly I am generally tetchy at the moment and it could have something to do with that as well.)

I've tried to explain that he does have empathy - he cares about other people, hates injustice etc, but is unable to read other people's facial expressions and body language which means he often gets it wrong.

Does anyone have a better way of explaining this?

To me, saying people with ASD don't have empathy makes them sound like sociopaths or psychopaths, as people tend to interpret is as meaning they are devoid of emotion or don't care about other people.

I'm not putting this very eloquently am I? Sorry - I have horrible brain fog and a whopping bad mood today.

Ive had issues with this lately (Amberlight has previously described it very well...she has a way with words and a great knowledge of ASD), however my DD would see someone crying and comfort them but could not 'imagine' the consequences of her actions or someone elses POV...so when she poured water over her brother and made him cry she had no idea why! :) Nor did she ask.

My son knows that babys need loving and hugs them because he has seen ppl do it when he was at nursery, if he SEES someone fall he knows what pain is as he has fallen and will rush up and hug them, if someone has picked on his sister and she is upset about it he gets mad. BUT if he is having a meltdown you could say till you were black and blue it is making you sad and he couldnt care less same goes for a teacher if she wants him to do something and it would make her happy he couldnt care less and just looks at her. You could be joking and he will not work it out and think you are teasing, he doesnt read expressions either HAS to see actions or hugs. Doesnt make then psychopaths but hey ho you cant stop people having those views when they dont actually understand.

Does work you up tho and some ppl are very narrowminded :)

Bollocks!
It's a sweeping generalisation.

It depends on the individual I suppose and exactly what constitutes empathy. To me, empathy has meant being able to put yourself into another persons shoes. Now I can do sympathy easily, but I rarely actually feel anything about another person's circumstances (though there are exceptions). So for example I might read a post in which the poster has said they are sad because they have broken up with a partner and so because they are sad I will say I'm thinking of them, or I'm sorry to hear about it, which is true, I don't want them to be sad. But I have no way of knowing how they feel and them feeling sad doesn't make me feel sad.
I care about other people but on a personal, individual level my emotions are quite low, I often feel very detached from situations which is why finding out that both my lads were on the spectrum didn't hit me as hard as many other people have related about. I have never really grieved for my MIL who was a very nice woman and who used to listen and talk and not judge, so it's not as if I'm glad she's dead. And when my dad had a car accident I felt nothing about it apart from revulsion when I saw the bruises.
Now, none of this should be taken to mean that I don't care about other people or that I don't love or like other people. I love my DH and our lads. I care that other people are happy and settled and will rarely have a go at someone in case I say something that hurts them. But I rarely feel any strong emotion about what another person is going through. The exception is my children and I think this is the maternal instinct coming into play, possibly because I have to focus and pay attention on them and therefore find myself more drawn on an emotional level to their issues, whereas with someone on the news, say, that need for an emotional attachment isn't there.

Thanks everyone, some really insteresting responses there and lots of food for thought.

I guess with my ds, he doesn't understand that when someone is crying that means they are upset or sad. The day I had my dog pts over christmas I was a mess and cried for most of the day on and off. I was red and puffy in the face and had tears streaming down, but it wasn't until I couldn't get my words out that he realised something was wrong and even then he didn't know why I couldn't get my words out. Eventually he did manage to ally it to a time when he had been sobbing so hard he couldn't speak and worked out that I must be very upset if I couldn't speak. As soon as he knew I was upset, he wanted to comfort me, as he genuinely doesn't like to think of other people being unhappy. He couldn't feel what I was feeling, but he could relate it to a time when he was unhappy himself and understand I needed a cuddle. Is that empathy?

I don't think he could have done that this time last year. Its something both we and the Ed Psych have done a lot of work on with him. That said, if I told him he had upset me he would get agitated and upset that he hadn't meant to upset me and didn't want me to be sad.

He also can't stand the thought of his baby sister being upset and he can associate her crying with a need for comfort, as he knows that babies only cry when they are upset and need help in some way. Having her has done far more for him than all the therapy/intervention in the world and I've watched him learn and grow with her over the past 24 months.

Being a spectrum, I suppose its obvious that it would be different from person to person. I suppose that makes it even harder to explain to people that don't understand though.

My DS is ASD (6). He can show empathy. We talk about feelings a lot.

I was upset a few weeks ago. We were in the car and I was sitting in the back. He was in the front. I was crying, fairly quietly (I can't even remember why now) and he couldn't see me. He said 'Oh Mummy, don't cry, don't be sad and everything will be OK'

I was delighted!

Spinkle that's lovely.

I'm hoping we will get there with ds someday. We do lots of talking about feelings and have an embarassingly large collection of books about various emotions, being a friend etc etc.

"I've tried to explain that he does have empathy - he cares about other people, hates injustice etc, but is unable to read other people's facial expressions and body language which means he often gets it wrong."

Sounds word perfect to me!

I took my son, ds, to meet the students (aged 11 to 16, all dx'd as having ASC's) before I returned to work. He was 12 months at that stage. For me, it was a lesson in where they were at with reference to all this stuff.

They were so absolutely enthralled with him. They always have to be reminded to sit in a group but they just crowded round him and really clamoured to interact with him, but in their own ways. One of them built a domino track for him, another brought him an entry in an encyclopaedia - they wanted to hold him, they were stroking his face, they wanted to make him laugh etc. There were some of them who didn't really "get" his nonverbals e.g. one of the boys wanted to pick him up and was pretty unaware that my son was using gesture and arching his back and making distressed noises and facial expressions, but this didn't mean that he had no feeling for him. Of all the kids, he's he one who seems the most "mindblind" in everyday life, the least aware that other people have minds that think different thoughts to those that are in his head but nonetheless, every single time he sees me he says: "How's your baby? Will you bring your baby to see us again?"

They were so tender with him, these teenaged boys with autism. I'm sure you could queston the "empathy" on some level but it's not the cold, robot-like presentation that lay-people assume, is it?

It's just that they can't read some of those emotional and facial cues, so it's hard for them to process it: make sense of it. Emotional and social learning is harder when such a large part of it is impaired.. but equating it with a lack of feeling seems wrong to me. I would say a lot of the children and young people I have met are quite sensitive to the emotional climate of a room to the extent it overwhelms them. Communicating that is a different story, though.

Thank you working9while5. I thought it was quite a good explanation, but people seem to look at me blankly, as if they still don't get it. I suppose I'm wondering how I can get across that he is a warm person with genuine feelings and not that 'cold robot'.

My ds is just the same with dd. In some ways he cares about her too much. He always wants to hug her and kiss and stroke her head etc and he's really gentle with her. Of course when she was tiny this was fine, but being a two year old, she now has very strong opinions on whether or not she wants a hug/kiss and he has no clue either way. She gives out such clear signals to him and he is oblivious. We are working on it though. I keep reminding him that now she is bigger she has personal space just like everyone else (as that's something he has learned to respect-ish).

I think you're right about him picking up on an atmosphere in a room as well. He can't make sense of what it is, or what it means, but it does affect him, very often physically as well as psychologically/emotionally. As you said, it overwhelms him.

I hate injustice as well. It makes no sense and everyone has rights which should be adhered to.
Ds1 is very loving with Ds2, but will hug and kiss regardless of what signals Ds2 is putting out.
Personally (and I do stress the personal aspect, my experiences are not a blanket form for all on the spectrum) my reduced empathy does not mean I think I have the right to ride roughshod over people's feelings. All it means is that even if I don't actually feel an emotional attachment to a particular situation, I will try and say or do the appropriate thing.

That's really interesting bullet.

Do you think this is something our dcs can learn over time, through modelling and/or social stories etc? Or is it something that you have always been able to do?

I worry that I can't possibly model enough situations for ds to cope in almost any situation and he struggles with generalising.

Well ironically something that causes me difficulties also helps to temper my reactions. Since I have difficulty initiating talking that means I don't blurt out somewhat too honest comments a lot. It's more a case that I don't easily pick up on nonverbal cues or hints and therefore often won't say anything, when saying something might be more appropriate. Which is another reason why I do well on the forums, because people are more direct there. In real life I've found that if I'm not sure what to say that it helps to keep silent anyway, or to say something like "oh I see." Sometimes, though, my social radar goes completely offkey and I end up asking someone if they had a nice time at a crematorium, or ask a host at a party where they live.
But as for have I always known what to say, of course not. Because I do not always know. But it has got better. My mum used to literally cry over my social skills.
And I go by the premise that as long as I'm not saying anything deliberately hurtful then I don't care how I'm perceived. But I can have some good conversations on a one to one basis, so I must be doing something right.

I actually think that saying nothing rather than filling up a silent moment with words just because it feels less awkward is something we should all learn to do. In some situations there just are no right words.

Ds is a very different kettle of fish, highly verbal and never quiet and quite happy to initiate a conversation with anyone, anytime anywhere. So, he always says something and its pot-luck whether its appropriate or inappropriate. He's learned a lot of standard responses for situations he experiences on a regular basis, its the unexpected/unusual or rarer ones that he struggles with.

Actually, I suppose he doesn't care how he's perceived either, as he doesn't notice if he's made a gaffe, so perhaps its my problem rather than his.

I think a lot of people find forums easier, as you say you have to be more direct otherwise you'd end up writing reams. (Well I do write reams, but that's just my style. I'm verbose and never use one word when three or four will do so, ds most likely gets it off me.) I can see how online chat would be much more comfortable for someone on the spectrum though, with none of the second guessing and trying to work out what people are really saying.

The world would definitely be a much better place for all if people said what they meant rather than saying one thing and meaning another.

Empathy - ah yes, the myth that we don't have it and can't have it. Oddly, I don't know anyone on the planet who has full empathy. If we did, we'd probably all be vegetarians who devoted ourselves wholeheartedly to saving lives. We all have the ability to shut off emotionally-difficult things we don't want to contemplate. People on the autism spectrum may have a better ability to do that.

As young people or if severely affected, it's a problem, because we don't know enough rules or have enough life-experience to be able to guess what to do or say. But we can learn the rules, and we can learn what things felt like for us...then apply it to other people. Takes a longer time, but it's the same end result.

It can be a positive advantage, to be honest. I know a large number of people on the autism spectrum who make excellent first-aiders, for example, (I worked with St John Ambulance for years), because we can be logical about what needs doing and calm if we know what to do about it, and that calmness is exactly what the person often needs.

Our problem is more often that we can't see the body language in the first place, so can't guess what people are thinking in the same way that others can (generalising). So we need words or clear observations to help guide us.

That might be irritating for people sometimes, but it's no different to expecting someone who's blind to be able to comment on a painting they're in front of - they can't see the stuff! How are they going to comment? But it doesn't mean they're incapable of appreciating art once it's explained/felt/heard/experienced in ways they can access. So it is with us and empathy.

Amber you are a marvel, once again you have explained it in such a clear and understandable way.

I find it interesting what you said about shutting emotions off, as I'm aware that I can do this, perhaps a little too easily and people have always said I am extraordinarily calm in a crisis.

Ds also does it. If something bothers him, its as if he can mentally put distance between himself and it - almost choose not to see it. With ds, it tends to come out in other ways though, like tic-ing and stimming, so I usually know when there's something bothering him.

It reassuring for me that as time goes on, the life experiences ds has will help inform his choices on what to say, or not to say. I already see him trying to apply his own experience to situations he sees others in and its something we are working on with him.

I guess I just get mad when others can't or won't see him like we do. He is such a lovely caring boy, but its hard for others to see that sometimes, especially when he often comes across as rude and/or abrupt. Doesn't help of course when you come across those people that won't even consider that Aspergers exists and insist that its just an excuse for badly behaved children and poor parenting. [mad]

The art analogy is a really good one. I think it would really help to explain to people that although he can't see what others are thinking or feeling, that doesn't mean he is incapable of understanding and empathising once its been explained to him within a frame of reference he can understand. I will definitely add that to my explanation in future, if that's ok?

Thank you so much for taking the time to come and explain it to me, especially with your own problems at the moment. Hope you are feeling less sore and more comfortable today.

Yup, thanks, not very sore at all - largely because I'm now numb under that arm due to the investigation operation .