Could DS1, 7, have dyspraxia or something similar?

[Pesha]

I started a thread in education earlier but no replies and I did ramble on a bit. Have since been googling and looked at a list of symptoms of dyspraxia, ds1 has a lot of the symptoms but not so much the gross motor skill problems.

He is an August baby and started at Junior school in sept but struggling and becoming more and more reluctant to go. He had 10 mins every morning with the school SENCO in yr2 because of the large difference between his reading and writing ability. Since christmas he has been having 1 hour a week 1 on 1 time with a teacher because of the same problems. His reading level in Sept was apparently 9.5 but his writing I think is below his current age level. But no one has ever given a reason for the difference.

Have C&Pd the symptoms from the dyspraxia foundation website below and commented on what he does and doesn't have, seems easier than ne trying to describe everything as I would go on for several pages I'm sure!

Have left out early symptoms, he had very few as a baby, only thing he was slow to do was talk. He was actually walking at 10 months, was constantly on the go since birth!! Very full of energy.

Pre-school children - 3 to 5 year olds
If dyspraxia is not identified, problems can persist and affect the childís life at school. Increasing frustration and lowering of self-esteem can result.

Children with dyspraxia may demonstrate some of these types of behaviour:

Very high levels of motor activity, including feet swinging and tapping when seated, hand-clapping or twisting. Unable to stay still - Yes, definitely. At playschool they "hugged" him at story time to keep him still for 5 mins!
High levels of excitability, with a loud/shrill voice - Yes, teacher in Yr2 commented on how loud his voice was and not cos he was shouting or misbehaving, just generally loud. Also have a friend who is blind who has always commented how loud he is.
May be easily distressed and prone to temper tantrums - Yes, always big tantrums, strops and sulks. Even now. Incredibly sensitive and easily upset.
May constantly bump into objects and fall over - not so much. Probably a little more clumsy than most chilren but not a lot more I don't think.
Hands flap when running - Have never noticed this so probably not.
Difficulty with pedalling a tricycle or similar toy - No, rode his sister's bike with stabilisers before he turned 3 I think and riding without in reception aged 4.
Lack of any sense of danger (jumping from heights etc) - absolutely! I have always commented how strange that he is terrified of spiders, moths, the dark, his own shadow etc but absolutely no fear of things that might actually hurt him like climbing and throwing himself down hill sides and the like.
Continued messy eating. May prefer to eat with their fingers, frequently spill drinks - Yes, still doesn't use cutlery without me nagging and spills drinks several times a week!!
Avoidance of constructional toys, such as jigsaws or building blocks - Not really - has never wanted to di jigsaws but does like blocks and lego and building things.
Poor fine motor skills. Difficulty in holding a pencil or using scissors. Drawings may appear immature - definitely, very much struggling with his writing now, avoids drawing as not very goodd at it.
Lack of imaginative play. May show little interest in dressing up or in playing appropriately in a home corner or wendy house - No, has always loved dressing up.
Limited creative play - Yes, a bit. Never been keen on arty stuff.
Isolation within the peer group. Rejected by peers, children may prefer adult company - not really. In the past has always had lots of friends and been very popular but never had a best friend. Always gets very cclose to his teachers though. Struggling with his peers this school year though and particularly the older dhildren in the school.
Laterality (left- or right-handedness) still not established - Yes, took a long time before he settled on his right hand.
Persistent language difficulties - Don't know, he has a good vocabulary and likes to use 'big words' but takes an age to get a sentence out.
Sensitive to sensory stimulation, including high levels of noise, tactile defensiveness, wearing new clothes - No to tactile but yes to disliking loud noise.
Limited response to verbal instruction. May be slow to respond and have problems with comprehension - Yes
Limited concentration. Tasks are often left unfinished - Yes. Very easily distracted

By 7 years old
Problems may include:

Difficulties in adapting to a structured school routine - yes he is definitely struggling fitting into Junior school routine.
Difficulties in Physical Education lessons - No I don't think so but does struggle a little with some things.
Slow at dressing. Unable to tie shoe laces - yes, very slow, struggling with his tie and can't tie laces.
Barely legible handwriting - its legible but does look like a much younger child's.
Immature drawing and copying skills - Yes.
Limited concentration and poor listening skills - Yes, Cannot listen or follow instructions when the TV is on, even if its not something he likes. Says other children at school distract him all the time. Think the teachers struggle to get him to concentrate.
Literal use of language - I'm not sure TBH, not that I've picked up on.
Inability to remember more than two or three instructions at once - Yes, if I ask him to go upstairs to my room and get X from the bedside table on my side of the room he will manage to go to my room but won't no where to look IYSWIM.
Slow completion of class work - yes, is often in 'catch up'.
Continued high levels of motor activity - Yes but not all the time. Gets very tired and can easily collapse in front of tv without moving!
Hand flapping or clapping when excited - Not that I've noticed.
Tendency to become easily distressed and emotional - Yes, very.
Problems with co-ordinating a knife and fork - Yes.
Inability to form relationships with other children - Has formed friendships but as I said earlier he has no best friend just gets on ok with lots of children but struggling with this too atm.
Sleeping difficulties, including wakefulness at night and nightmares - Yes definitely. Has always suffered with nightmares since a toddler. HAs a nightmare at least once or twice and takes a long time to get to sleep at night. Has to have the light on.
Reporting of physical symptoms, such as migraine, headaches, feeling sick - Yes, took him to Dr a few months ago as he was complaining of chest pain. Dr thinks it is pyschosomatic.

Sorry this has got so long again, the list didn't look so long before. It seems he has a lot of symptoms but from looking at other sites too I believe the clumsiness and gross motor skills are among the main symptoms of dyspraxia but his problems with these don't seem much worse than most children his age to me.

Could it just be anxiety? Or could it be dyslexia, dp is dyslexic? Something else? I have a friend I met through MN who, when ds was about 4, commented he displayed some autistic behaviour but he has always been very tactile and affectionate and very good at empathising so I dismissed it.

Where do I go from here, should I talk to the school? He wants me to take him back to dr as his chest is still hurting him, should I talk to the dr about my concerns? I'm always reluctant to go to professionals and say 'I think its X cos I read it on a web site'! I could really use some advice and opinions before I go anywhere with this, I'm quite lost really and can't stand seeing my little boy so upset

Am going to bed now as this took me so long to write I hadn't realised how late it was! Don't mean to post and run but its prob too late for any replies anyway!!

It might be worth asking for a full assessment to see what's going on. It may be that the individual issues are linked to/caused by something else but it's hard to say tbh.

Initial thoughts are (and apologies if this turns into a jumbled mess!):

• Has the school told you exactly what kind of help they are giving your ds? ie are they doing physical exercises or a particular program to build up fine motor skills or are they concentrating purely on writing?

If you're looking for something 'tangible' to focus on with professionals then this can be your starting point.

• Being tactile and affectionate won't rule out ASD. My 8yr-old (AS) is like an overgrown puppy in this respect - so eager to give hugs that he barrels into you and almost knocks you over.

• Difficulties with comprehension: again something to bring up as one of your main concerns. This is something a SALT should be able to advise on. One useful tactic is to not ask your ds if he's understood. It's too easy for him to just say yes even if it's not the case. Instead ask him to tell you what he needs to do. This way it's easier to see how much of the instructions he has understood and retained.

• The sensory issues are something an OT should be able to help with. They would hopefully build up a sensory profile to see which areas are affected.

A common way of explaining the effects of sensory difficulties is to imagine taking an exam in a room where the lights are too bright, music is blasting out, and you're wearing clothes made of fibreglass. That's how difficult it can be to concentrate in a classroom environment.

You might find that headphones/ear defenders help him to filter out enough noise to be able to concentrate. Other people have had success with various auditory integration programmes. Hopefully an OT will be able to advise you.

In your position I would probably take the approach of telling the doctor that your ds has problems with fine motor skills, comprehension, and sensory issues and that you would like a full assessment to find out the cause(s) and how he can be helped.

No need to mention us internet sprites. :)

Hi coppertop, thanks for your reply.

As far as I know the help he is getting is just one to one help with his schoolwork generally and main focus on handwriting I think. No specialised help. He seems to like having the extra help but has missed his playtime a few times which seems a bit unfair and not going to help much socially. I think I do need to talk to his teachers and find out exactly whay they are doing with him and what they think are the specific problems with regards his writing.

I am quite unhappy with one of his teachers at the moment (he has 2 who job share, one mon-wed and one wed-fri). He told me a while ago (I think it was over xmas hols which is why I didn't talk to her in the end) that she ripped his work out his book because he hadn't stuck it in straight and threw it on the floor. Yesterday he told me that first she held his book up to the class and said "Is this how we do sticking in?", the class obviously answered no so she ripped his work out the book and chucked it on the floor, ds cried apparently. Yesterday when he told her one of the boys had called him 'a peach with a bum split face' that she just laughed. She also apparently shouts and gets cross a lot which he doesn't like. (He doesn't like me and dp arguing/bickering actually and will tell us off if we do!) So I'm now wondering how much she is to blame for how unhappy he is.

I think I need to talk to my friend about what it was about ds that made her say that. I was quite shocked TBH, I did come home and google but all the stuff about difficulties with understanding other people, empathising was nothing like him. I remember when reading books with him he would always comment on the expressions of people in the pictures and if they were happy, scared etc. Hes always been described as being very popular by teachers and has had golden awards for kindness and going out of his way to be helpful and look after people. Not that I'm suggesting autistic children are not kind I just mean thathis social skills always appeared to be very good. Its only now he seems to be struggling more and thats caused me to think much harder about things. But there obviously must have been some behaviour issues she noticed. Sorry I'm rambling again!

I do often say to him 'what did I just say/ask you to do?' but possibly more in a nagging, 'pay attention ds' kind of way than a very helpful way He also does not like making eye contact, I notice this most when I'm trying to give him clear instructions or question him on something as I want him to look at me so I know hes paying attention but I remember years ago learning that its not unusual for some children to not be good at eye contact so I've never tried to make him. Am noticing more thats it in all situations he doesn't really.

I have made him a Drs appointment this afternoon although not able to get the best Dr! I think I will do what you suggest, I'll write a list of my concerns as my memory is hopeless an ask that they assess him. Will also try and talk to his nice teacher later in the week about my concerns.

He struggled in the 2nd half of reception and start of yr1 and even had blood tests as he became so tired and withdrawn. I got to a point where I decided I'd give him a few more months and if things didn't improve I was going to take him out of school and home school him as it just didn't seem like he was suited to a school environment. But things did improve hugely and he ended up doing brilliantly. Now I feel like we're back in the same place again and I hate it. In the summer hols after reception when ds was 5 his grandad commented that he had 'lost his smile' since starting school which broke my heart. He got it back but now we're losing it again.

Most of the problems you descride are similar to my dd1, dd1 was diagnosed with Aspergers at the age of 4 but she also has some dyspraxia traits. Dd1 gets on well at school and is top of the class for english and maths but when i see her writing to me it looks very scruffy (not good enough for her age). Dd1 is very loud and will talk non-stop getting louder if no one responds to her, her eye contact is not great, she's very careful on her feet, can't run very fast but does not babg into things. Dd1 is very popular at school but still likes to play on her own from time to time, she has no (what i call) behaviour problems but can get upset easily (cries a lot).

Deffently write down all your concerns for when you take him to the GP.

You need a referral to a paed. A GP can't dx anything. Just go to your GP (without DS) and ask him for a referral to a paed because you have loads of concerns about his development.

Don't say dyspraxia. If pushed, say something much more generic than that 'Oh maybe ASD or Dyspraxia or ADHD or something else...'

Because, otherwise you risk the paed saying I don't dx dyspraxia go to XYZ etc.....

But, if for no other reason than to put your mind at rest, he def needs to be seen by a paed.

Pesha, I have a DS who is now in year 3 dx dyspraxia. One thing you do need to also consider - aside from the day to day difficulties - is that he has gone up to a more 'serious' side of school. I found that there was also this jump from reception to year 1 as well, but not noticeably from yr1 - 2.
If writing is an issue,along with being organised, sitting still etc , an increase in these as a requirement is going to be tough. There is less playtime - so less down time. More writing, more expectations. If your DS is finding this jump too much, this in itself could be making him feel unhappy. It also highlights his abilities in comparison with his peers.
Definitely ask for a developmental paediatrician's appt, but also, what have you discussed with the school? You say that he has 1 hour of 1-1, and SENco input. Does he have an IEP, is he on school action plus or any of these equivalents? The school must have made a decision to 'boost' his skills. How much input have you been asked for? Have you discussed your concerns with them and asked for their support?
My DS's teacher has put a couple of strategies in place to re-level the playing field in class. It keeps his confidence up and therefore his happiness. Are there ways that she could help your DS more (apart from lowering her tone!) that she would be happy to do?

Hi Pesha, your ds sounds very much like mine, although mine is now 8 - nearly 9 years old.

The transition to juniors hit him very hard, he really struggled and all but fell to pieces, despite sailing through infants with very few problems. It was a horrible time for him, so much so, that we decided to have him assessed within the first half term of year 3.

We went to our GP and asked to be referred to a Paediatrician, who we saw within 6 weeks and who told us he suspected Aspergers and referred us to the local multi-disciplinary assessment unit.

He was diagnosed with Aspergers about a fortnight ago and is also being assessed for possible dyspraxia in two weeks time. They can be comorbid, but there are often dyspraxic-like/motor co-ordination problems which accompany ASD but don't add up to a dyspraxia diagnosis.

My ds has many of the same issues eg poor/age-inappropriate handwriting, over-emotional/sensitive (cried and/or gets angry very easily), struggles to sit still, struggles to use cutlery properly, spills a drink at almost every meal time, avoids eye contact, has to have instructions repeated to him, can't remember more than one step of an instruction in one go, gets exhausted by school and loses his 'sparkle' but recovers during the summer and we get our boy back only to lose him again come September, suffers from upper GI (chest) pain caused by reflux due to anxiety relating to school. He is empathic in his own way - in that he does care about other people, he just struggles with knowing what other people are feeling so doesn't give the appropriate/expected response, however if his little sister is upset he gets very concerned and wants to help, he also loves hugs and will happily sit on mine or dh's knee for hours if we let him.

I could go on - and on, honestly they sound so similar, you could have been writing about my ds, with the exception that my ds can't ride a bike without stabilisers. We also had no idea about most of his sensory issues until very recently and found out he has several during the assesment process.

His teacher sounds awful and in your shoes I would be speaking to the head about her treatment of ds. Public humiliation is totally unacceptable in any situation, but particularly in a classroom, by a teacher whose job it is to nurture and support her pupils. It does sound like she could well be a possible cause for his anxiety and chest pains.

Having your ds assessed and either identifying specific problems that need support or getting a diagnosis of some sort, would be a way of getting his teacher/s to recognise that the should be handling him in a different way and also to appreciate his strengths and weaknesses.

I hope you are able to get to the bottom of it all. GP is definitely a good place to start.

Good luck.

Hi, thank you for all replies, it really helps.

Well we have been to the dr, I left ds1 in the waiting room with dp and then the dr wanted to see him after talking just to check his chest again but couldn't find anything wrong. Dr wasn't great TBH, is not one I've seen before, I was seeing him too about my SPD and he told me just to take paracetamol I told him I wanted physio so he has referred me. Anyway, he said I need to talk to the school nurse who can write a report and send it to DS1's dr and if it agrees with my concerns then they will refer him but they need 2 statements, not just mine. Now I don't think his school, or indeed very many others, have school nurses anymore but I assume it would be the SENco who would assess him and write a report? So I plan on trying to talk to his teacher Friday or at least make an appointment to (I have mindees after school tomorrow so can't really then.).

Auntevil - his time with a SENco was in yr2 in the infants, Junior school is on the same site but completely seperate school. All that has happened at the moment is I got a letter just before christmas saying DS had been selected to be one of a set number of children in his year offered one to one time with a teacher for an hour a week. It is still one of his normal class teachers. When the teacher gave me the letter she said it was to help him with his writing and also as he seems to have low self esteem. I talked to her briefly then about how he was still seeming unsettled, I had mentioned the nightmares and trouble sleeping at parent's evening in Oct. Ater he went to the Dr the last time for his chest pain I spoke to her and said the dr thought it was psychosomatic due to the stress of starting school etc and have also spoken to both teachers and a TA about him being upset by being teased by other pupils.

But I have not sat down with them properly and voiced all my concerns in one as really it is only just come together all in one in my mind. I had wondered if the writing and attention issues may be dyslexia but had put everything else down to being either stress with starting school or just how DS is as hes always been quite a unique child IYSWIM. I've wondered about things in the past but always ended up feeling it was just me over worrying. But now I'm thinking about it I keep realising there are lots of seemingly insignificant things he does all the time. For instance tonight I realised he never manages to sit down for the entire length of a meal, he always gets up and wanders around for some reason and I have to tell him several times to sit down and eat. But at 7 he really should be able to sit down for 15 minutes max to eat a meal. At the drs he was swinging his feet and twisting in his chair and didn't really look up from the floor the whole time he was in there.

Sorry, prattling on again

Will talk to his teacher (the nicer one as she works this half of the week now!) and tell her my concerns and also arrange to talk to SENco.

Hi Moosemama, sorry x-post, spent ages writing last post as ds1 & 2 up and downstairs wanting dinks and apples and anythng else thats not going to bed! Had to laugh at ds1 who came down with a too small ben 10 dressing gown, bright yellow sponge bob socks, back pack on his back, a torch and the hoover hose!! Not quite sure what game they've been playing

Reading your post had me almost in tears, probably mainly due to pg hormones but also because it does sound so much like my ds. I've always worried over him and been very defensive of him. Started I think by my mum being pretty awful since he was a toddler and wanting very little to do with him despite always adoring my dd. Plus he was such a challenge as a baby/toddler I had to completely rethink my parenting and how I approached him. I could never shout at him or get cross as he would just clam up. And I found handing him over to school when he was still so young terrifying, I was so worried they wouldn't take the time to learn how he works and how to get the best from him but they did in the infants, they were brilliant. Now looking back I suppose the fact that his behaviour and 'the way he works' is so specific should have suggested to me that perhaps there was a reason for this.

I am still very upset about the teacher. I'm in 2 minds what to do though, I don't want to make a big deal and then have her resenting ds and possibly being even harder on him. I'm pretty sure the head will do nothing as he's no better himself I don't think, seems to have very little time for the less than perfect children! I will mention to the other teacher (I shall call her Mrs H) though that ds has been upset by a few incidents with the first teacher (Mrs B). And I may try talking to Mrs B to let her know that ds has been upset by her but try to make it more about him being sensitive and perhaps needing a gentler approach than her being a bitch bit harsh. DD is in yr5 and said some of her classmates had Mrs B last year and described her as 'angry and mean' so its not just ds by the sounds of it.

It does sound like Mrs B is harsh - and the best approach would be with Mrs H.
If i'm being honest, the fact that your DS was given 1-1 and that only a small number of children in his year were given that, in my mind means that the school are already very aware that intervention is needed.
As the 2 schools seem to be run separately, i am assuming that there is a different SENco for the juniors? If so, what handover did the 2 SENcos do on your DS? Could they not give you paperwork (copies) of this for your GP to start the referral procedure?
When you have your meeting, make sure that you have all the information that you have put in this post with you - and any other that you can think of. Write a list of all the questions you have about your DS. His abilities in comparison with his peer group, his social abilities, his physical abilities, personal organisation skills, listening skills, ability to follow written and spoken instruction etc, etc. Ask what steps they are going to take to help, what timescale will this be done by, and by who.
You will get a sense of whether they are serious about helping or stalling and disinterested.
There is an issue of being timely about all of this. All assessments, any diagnosis, and detailed plans for a strategy do take time to set up. We are close to half way through year 3. There is only half left to try to redress being behind in any aspect this year. The summer will come and go and before you know it he's in year 4. It will be harder to 'catch up', the difference between peers greater, the confidence lower etc.
I know this sounds really negative, but it's all too easy for teaching staff to let things drift along - particularly if he doesn't cause any disruption in class. I made that mistake to start off with. I trusted the SENco and teacher that OT plans and other strategies were being put into practise. I now know how naive i was.
It sounds like you are ready to get going with chivvying everyone along. Keep on top of any promises, keep notes of who said what and hold them to it. Good luck with the meetings.

Above all - keep talking to your ds about how the important thing is that he tries hard, even if his handwriting isn't neat; that you don't mind if he makes mistakes, has untidy work, etc as long as he is trying hard; that everybody makes mistakes etc. Don't just say this once - keep saying it when appropriate. Lots of children (and boys particularly IME)can get very upset about not being "the best", not getting 10/10 etc. Also emphasise his other good qualities that you appreciate - playing great games with ds2 sounds like a good starter! Try not to get annoyed when he knocks his drink over for the nth time as he won't be doing it deliberately!
Some children can benefit from seeing these things written down as a kind of story - eg DS1 is 7 years old and goes to x school. At school he likes abc and is good at being kind and helping other children. Sometimes he does not find it easy to write neatly. This is OK as long as he is trying. Some people do take longer to learn how to write neatly etc etc etc. Ds1's mum and dad are really proud of the way he keeps trying with his school work even though it is hard sometimes. etc etc - you get the idea.
You could read this together a lot for a few weeks and see if it helps!

Hi, sorry not to post sooner.
Have a meeting at 12 today with both his teachers. have written down all the points I've made on here and a few others I thought of. Also made a seperate list of his concerns that he wants me to mention.

Had to speak to his teacher, Mrs B, this morning as he went wearing trainers, school shoes lost in his bedroom somewhere! She said he'd had a really good week last week, done really well, responded to lots of praise, loves the one to one and they have him sitting right at the front of the class now so hes right next to them. She said and agreed with me how easily distracted he is, how he prefers the one to one without other children etc but at one point said 'yes thats just boys isn't it?'. We didn't talk long but I strongly suspect that is her position and they are going to try and tell me that its just him being a boy and because hes so young etc etc. Which it may be and I really hope it is and as he adjusts he can settle down and be fine. But I want them to assess him so we can be sure that thats all it is and we're not missing something else. Going to have to be firm I think. My natutral inclination is just to go with what the teachers say and trust that they know best and will do what needs to be done but as you say Auntevil I'm beginning to realise that thats not always how it works and that now I really do need to start fighting his corner.

I was talking to a friend the other day whos 5th child is currently in yr5 with my dd. He was diagnosed with ADHD in yr3, picked up on initially by Senco in yr2. She said he was assessed by my ds1's teacher Mrs H which is quite promising I think (hope!). She also said he had Mrs B last year and found her to be really good with him, having previously disliked her for leaving one of her other dc at Bristol zoo several years ago But I am feeling more inclined to give Mrs B the benefit of the doubt now.

However friend also confirmed what I thought about the head being a dick. When her son was first dx she had a phone conversation with the head in which he complained about having another one of 'those children' and he has more of 'those children' in his school than any other school and half of them don't actually have anything wrong with them anyway. She said she was literally speechless (which is very unlike her!!) and wishes she'd recorded the conversation.

Sarahfreck - I very much like the idea of writing a little book with him, I think he'd love that. He really does love books, he has currently decided he is going to read The Call of the Wild, I've had to explain a few words to him (and I suspect theres quite a few more hes just guessed at or ignored) but is persevering, bless him! I have publisher on my laptop so may see if we can make something up on there together, he prefers typing to writing and I think would be really good to get him involved in making it as well as reading it.

sorry, not read all the thread but spotted the "two statements" thing to refer. It is frankly, bollocks.

I wrote to DS's GP and he referred him on the basis that I ticked 19 out of the 20 symptoms... if your DS is showing a lot of signs, write to the GP with a tick list of the symptoms from the Dyspraxia Foundation website and see what they say...

DS is in year 3 now and is struggling a hell of a lot. I am fighting for his right to support, so be prepared; we're in this for the long haul :(

Psha, reading through your list above, my ds (9) ticks so many that your ds ticks. He is dyspraxic, with many sensory issues, and is awaiting an assessment by CAHMS as I suspect he is on the autistic spectrum as well. I simply went to the GP with a printed list from the dyspraxia foundations website, with all my concerns listed against them (like your list above), along with samples of his handwriting, and was referred to the Paediatrician, who actually diagnosed him within one appointment.

I so want to go through your list and give you some suggestions based on what I have done/had suggested to do with my ds, but if I do this message will go on forever. Feel free to message me (click on the inbox at the top of the screen and message my name) and I will pass on any advice you want.

Not been on MN much lately, was sure I'd posted about meeting at the school but obviously not! Off to bed now but this will be at top of my threads I'm on now so will post tomorrow. Meeting went very well and wheels are in motion now