AIMU in thinking things would be so much easier if people educated there NT about SN children?

[Marne]

Maybe IBU?

Both my dd's (AS and ASD) go to ms school, most of the children (well a few of them) are very helpfull with dd2 (they know she has SN's and look out for her), the rest of the children seem to think dd2 is a freek and either stay wasy from her or they bully her (luckily dd2 doesn't notice but sadly dd1 does). A couple of times i have been aproached by these children asking questions about dd2 (why does she wear different shoes, why can't she talk) and i often hear children calling her a baby , i am happy to answer their questions but it seems like there parents have never told them about sn children (not all children are the same ect.. ect..). I guesss i can't expect parents to educate their children (as in some cases the parents have not got a clue about sn's ).

Would you rather children at your dc's school were told that your child has ASD (or any other sn) rather then them judging your child and not understanding why they are loke they are?

I have been thinking the same thing Marne. My ds suffers from bullying,name-calling being called a freak etc.Some of these dc's parents are no better though - have had threats on doorstep,ds being confronted outside school etc. Was thinking of writing an open letter to these parents through the local paper trying to get them and their dc's to realise that some children do have SN even though they may appear nt and some tolerance would be nice. Would have to be anonymous though as no doubt there would be a backlash from somewhere!
Perhaps school should be educating about differences though too.

I think it would depend on the child who had previously been intolerant/nasty/ignorant to be honest. Some might feel upset or ashamed at their behaviour towards the child with special needs. A few, unfortunately, would use the diagnosis against the child with special needs.

Hard to say - children have natural curiousity about differences and adults need to take the lead to give the right information. DS2 (NT 4) does ask (fortunately only to me) questions that could seem rude - 'Why can't x talk?' etc but he means it in innocent way and genuinely wants to know the answer . When he is older he may want to know things like 'Why does SN happen to one child and not another?' and I think we would all struggle to answer that one. When it crosses into nastiness and and bullying, it really must be challenged by all adults parents and teachers.

It is tolerance that needs to be taught, not just SN, but differences in general. Children naturally have a curiosity about anyone who looks different to the people that they are familiar with. That could be race, age, height, weight and abilities. I know cultures are discussed at an early age in the N curriculum - it should have additional areas to cover - and continue to cover until this has become a fundamental understanding.

I agree, we never mind curiosity from kids either about ds, (who looks 'average') and dh who does not...

will always be happy to answer questions, but I recognise that I am helped in this by the fact that dh is very happy to talk about his disabilities and ds doesn't give a *%$@, so I work on the principle get the info out there and it should help.

Am finding the thought of ds getting bullied when older cos of his sn really scary tho...

I think the attitude of both teachers and parents has a huge influence in the way that NT children treat those with SN. We moved earlier this year (schools and areas). At last school DD was very unhappy after several years of bullying. There were children that had been good to her but many hadn't. It had been explained to the class what was wrong with her.

At the new school the children quickly noticed something was wrong with her and a decision taken,with our blessing, to explain to the children what was wrong. In fact DD did it and in her own words. The children hugged her and said they were proud of her. Parents of those children spoke to me to tell me that there children were proud of her. She now is happy, sociable, and has a number of friends, none of whom talk down to her. I no longer feel the parent of a child that is different in the playground as I'm not seen as such.

I really hope that you are able to work with the school to get the right message across to these children.

Sorry, i wrote the post because yesterday dd1 came home upset as a couple of the boys had been playing a game where they chased dd2 around shooting her and blowing her up , dd2 didn't have any idea what was going on as she's in her own little world but dd1 was very upset that dd2 had been singled out. The boys in question are the boys who keep asking questions about dd and in the past have called her a baby. Dd1 had a little word with them . Dd1 has been bullied in the past because of her AS traits but is learning to handle it (and can now tell people she has AS).

Not just young kids that are down right bloody nasty it's not just DS who gets it DD2 gets into bother at school for defending her brother she gets told her brothers a s*c and rd
Problem is its high school so I don't go in anymore.

Sorry Marne. I was responding to the question at the end of your post about whether other children should be told about SN. I apologise if I appeared to ignore the fact that dd2 was unaware but dd1 was upset by their actions. What are the school doing to address this?

My DD was aware to the extent that she was saying "she wanted her world to end", but younger DS was also greatly affected by seeing what was going on at school and how she was at home. He is now getting help in his own right because of it.

Apologies if my post seemed out of question. In answer to your question, I do think other children should be made aware, but it needs to be handled correctly. Is there an external agency that could come in and talk to the children in assembly, for example?

I meant out of context!

I think it is quite hard for parents to talk generally about children with special needs to their children, it's all very well saying out of context 'some children can't walk because their legs don't work in the same way yours do' or whatever, but until they actually see a child in a wheelchair I don't think it would really make much sense. Even with programs like Something Special where there can be children with very obvious SNs, my kids have never asked anything about them and don't even appear to notice.

However, in a more specific case - like a school where a child has SN, then I personally think it is a good idea for the other children to be educated about SN. In DSs school there is a lad in the year above him with AS, due to being a small school DS was in the same class last year, and early on in the year the teacher gave a talk about AS. Not just 'bad' points, but good ones too- X has amazing knowledge about Star Wars etc. In fact she explained AS so well, DS (pre dx) came home and asked me if he had AS as he identified with so much of the stuff in the book. Most parents on the yard are aware X has AS and he isn't singled out by them in any nasty way. Some of these parents have been told by their DCs that DS is 'weird' and they have been told that they should be nice to people no matter what.
On the other hand there is another lad in the school who is exceptionally naughty. It isn't known among the parents if he has SN, but the attacks he has done on the chilren are fairly and some parents are looking at removing their children/kicking up a stink at the school because of him. I have no idea if he has SN but if he has, I think it would be easier for the other parents to understand his actions and explain them to their children. If he hasn't however, then the school really need to act more as he has put several kids in hospital.
However, this is a small rural village school, less than 100 pupils, so parents know the names of most children on the yard, where in general bullying is stamped on straight away, not sure if this would be my opinion if it was a larger school - like my son's last one where he spent all his lunch time hidden under the temporary buildings, no need there to give out even more reasons for bullying!

Actually Littlemissgreen, I think you have a point - maybe it depends on the size of the school. We moved from a large school to a very small one - it's much harder for things to go unchecked. I have noticed, however, a real difference in the way the other children talk to DD in front of me and how they run up to her in the morning when we get to school. Her differences just don't seem to matter.

I think parents should definitely teach their children to be nice to others no matter what, but it's easier said than done. Kids can be so cruel, regardless of SN or not! I remember in my primary school, we had two SN boys in our class and none of us were bothered, the girls used to help them, and the boys just acted normal around them. However, there was a lad in the class whose family was obviously really poor and perhaps a little dysfunctional, he didn't have SN but his clothes were old and dirty and he was never clean. Now HE got bullied. And that's awful because the poor kid probably had a dysfunctional and abusive upbringing (from what I can remember)

Then in high school, it was my brother that was the victim, he was bullied horrendously and they made his life a misery, and he's NT as well.
It's so so sad but kids can be so horrible regardless of whether someone is SN or not. I have to wonder whether it might actually make things worse as it could potentially just draw more attention to those who aren't NT and make the bullies even worse.

DS1 and DS2 are in MS with a disability base. It's a very inclusive school. On the whole everyone rubs along really well. All the children are used to playing and learning with children of all abilities - not just the more obvious physical ones.
There is still teasing/bullying that goes on though. i think that is the nature of the beast. All animals ostracise in different ways those that they think are weak or different.
DS1 was upset once that when giving out 'birthday treats', one of his 'mates' said what was the point in giving it to him as he couldn't eat it. Dyspraxia wasn't the issue, dietary problems were. Problem resolved by teacher saying that treats are to everyone and no-one can eat them without the person collecting them agreeing to it.

Marne, Its very sad that some parents don't teach their children though and worse still that in some cases, the parents' ignorance and prejudice is worse than the children's.

Its heartbreaking when this sort of thing is happening to your child and so frustrating that you can't be there to protect them. I really struggled when ds1 was being bullied. So many times I almost pulled him out of school, because I wanted to hold him close and keep him away from all the darkness in the world and I didn't feel like I could protect him (emotionally or physically).

I do think that most schools do at least some work on it, in SEAL and PHSE, but sadly, this often this isn't enough to change the attitudes of some of the children, particularly the ones of the aformentioned parents.

Our ASD inclusion team offer to come into the school and work with classes to engender a better understanding and acceptance of SN. They are careful not to mention any children's names or single anyone out and as well as talking about specific SNs they discuss unusual behaviours and other 'differences' why they should be more tolerant of them and how they can go about it. I'm told it has been very successful in the past.

They are going to do this for ds. We can't tell him he has AS at the moment for various reasons, some of which aren't relevant here, but also because some of the language used to describe Autism is already used as an insult in the playground. He is incredibly talkative open and trusting and would be likely to tell the wrong person leading to him being bullied for it. Their coming into the school to do this programme won't change our decision not to tell him about his dx just yet, but hopefully it will help some of the other children in his class to be a bit more tolerant.

A similar thing was done last year for a looked after child who had had a very bad start in life and had lots of resultant behavioural problems. When he first started, the other children just wouldn't accept him and he actually became the focus of a lot of bad feeling. Since doing the workshop, even though his name was never mentioned, he has become accepted and integrated well into the class. In fact he is one of the more popular boys this year. I presume the workshop was handled in a very sensitive way, so that the other children recognised some of his behaviours and actually stopped and thought about being more tolerant and understanding.

The other thing is the 'circle of friends' idea, where they carefully select a group of children, who then do some group sessions, which include the child who has SNs and they are encouraged to be good friends and support one another. They did this last year for a girl in my boys' school and its been really good. She went from an isolated little girl who spent all her time alone in the playground and was regularly picked on and bullied, to being part of a small group of friends who really seem to care about one another. I know her mum has been very impressed.

My ds is about to start this process as well, working one to one with his inclusion teacher in the first instance and then gradually introducing other children into the work until they have a nice cohesive group of friends.

I havn't spoken to the school about what happened, i don't want to upset dd1 (who has now gotton over it), the fact that dd2 doesn't notice bakes things easier (she's very happy at school). The school don't like me talking to others about the dd's having ASD as they feel dd2 should be treated the same as the nt children (even though she is different). The dd's go to a very small church school (80 children) and there class is a mixture of 3 year groups, the children in question (playing the shooting game) are 7 year olds (the eldest in the class) so should know better. Dd2 is one of 4 reception children (small intake this year) and is not the only child with SN's in her class. I would be happy for the class to be told that dd2 has ASD.

It does sound like your school would be able to do some awareness raising through SEAL, if not the inclusion team. It should be easier with such a small school. It doesn't have to be ASD specific or to do with your dd's specifically. As far as your dd is aware, it would just be some work around tolerance, patience and understanding and appreciating the differences between people. All things they should be covering under the national curriculum anyway.

I've been to the school a few times without ds knowing about it. If I feel he needs to know that I'm backing him up and supporting him, I tell him. Obviously, as he is so verbal and open, sometimes I have to get things dealt with without him knowing about it, otherwise he'd end up talking about it with the wrong children and get himself in a worse fix.

If you don't want to approach the school about a specific problem, it might be worth asking what they are covering in the SEAL curriculum at the moment. It might be something they are already planning?

Agree the school could do some awareness raising to avoid situations such as that for your dd. Older children perhaps need more work on this as they will be the ones noticing any 'differences' and acting on it. Do you have a good relationship with the class teacher?

Not sure how you approach the parents issue. I guess most parents don't address disability with their children? I was a bit stunned the other day when a friend said to me 'so what am I going to tell my daughter when she starts to ask me why your dd can't walk very well?' - obviously a bit too direct!!

I think that's quite sad Marne that the school don't like you talking to other parents about your DDs. Surely it should be your decision. Some parents are happy to talk and others not - its an individual choice. Why are the school so anti you making others aware? I would have thought that if over 50% of her group have SNs, that you would find at least half the parents empathetic to situations that might arise throughout their time together.

We have had a few problems with the school, mainly because they want to treat dd2 the same as the others (resulting in dd2 having to do things that she can't handle) and also problems with her statement being met.

Today was 'golden time' (when the children choose an activity), dd2 chose music (man singing on a guatar with the children), thhe school know full well that dd2 can not handle noise and singing but they let her go anyway resaulting in a melt down, dd1 was also doing music and got upset as dd2 did not have her ear deffenders (which are kept at school), eventually they took her out but she came home upset and will refusse to go on monday.

I'n the summer when dd2 visited the school for the afternoon i was told to hide her sn pushchair so none of the parents would see it and told to put her in trousers (not a skirt) so no one would see her nappy.

The trouble with school pretending she is the same is that kids will notice the differences but may reach the wrong conclusion! Also knowing about ASD does not mean they will treat her differently, it means they will be more understanding. If you explain to kids when they are very young they just accept it, its no big deal.

You need to give schools permission to talk about your child as there are confidentiality issues, but if you want it out in the open I don't see how they can object. Whats the point in learning about diversity if its just in books and on posters?

DS1 (NT) had 2 children with SN in his class and the school said nothing and the parents did not want anything said - DS1 would avoid these children as he thought they were naughty and refused to invite them to his party . One had quite unpredictable behaviour which actually scared him. Now this is mainly because DS1 hates getting in trouble, lives in total fear of breaking a rule and is mortified if a teacher even asks him to speed up, not because he was mean or a bully. He just did not want to get in trouble by association so stayed away.

Eventually I had to tell him as I felt really uncomfortable - it was not fair for him not to know - he came across as a bigot by avoiding them. I found out most other parents had done the same. Because obviously our kids were coming home with questions.

We did not have DS3 (ASD) at that point and obviously DS1 is now very aware of SN. But its been a learning curve and he would not have just understood on his own it did need to be explained - and then re-explained at different ages. He needed to know why 28 kids followed the rules and these 2 didn't. Once he knew it wasn't an issue. Despite one child looking very obviously SN, DS1 did not notice he just thought she was very small for her age.

I fully intend to send DS1 and DS2 into DS3 class before DS3 starts school and talk to the children about ASD. We have some books too for that age group. I think there are some nice resources on NAS website too eg for sensory issues might play lots of overlapping noises on a tape so its overwhelming and explain thats how some children hear all the time so might be why they don't respond to voices, or get them to touch something like sandpaper and explain thats how clothes can feel like etc. You can also emphasise the things your DD is good at as well as what she is not and get the children to think about what they find easy / hard.

If the SN is very obvious then not talking about it is almost making it something to be ashamed of.

One parent I know sent a letter to every parent in the class and explained about the SN. Another wrote a letter which the school could share with any child who asked questions.

Maybe next casual clothes day you should just send her in a I'm not naughty I have autism t-shirt!

Thanks Agnes, i'm temped with the t-shirt (she does have one), its non-uniform next friday (for book day), i think the school would shoot me .