Does anyone else think-Sats results?

[sahs1969]

Hi,
Just pondering really on our Tribunal hearing we went to in the week.
The panel said that dd's yearly results show that other than in Maths she is making progress-which we disagree with-we do not see the huge improvement in her written work at all-def not at the results they say she reached at the end of Year 4.
Do any of you think that sometimes they mark these lower children higher than they actually are to make their figures and stats look good for the school?
Thanks,
S
x

Absolutely any results which are done by the school can be lies.

It is only the year 6 SAT results which are externally marked which you can trust.

Ask for evidence and school have to show you evidence that she has reached the grade.

Plus all the criteria for levels are on the DFES website so you can work out yourself if she has reached a certain grade.

Unfortunately it is very common to inflate grades. Your child was probably targeted with making two sub levels of progress a year. If she doesn't make that the teacher will be asked why. So there is a lot of pressure on the teacher to show that the child has made progress.

I've started keeping samples of her written work and videoing DD reading so that I have counter evidence to prove she is not making progress.

What level in reading and writing are school saying your DD is?

I also have a home record of writing for ds.. Because I think the results we have from current school on how much progress in writing are a bit questionable.

Ds did well in his year 6 sats.. Which we were really pleased with... However..He was given the right environment to do the tests.. On his own at a different time with a TA in a quiet room.

It the same for all of his assessments or tests.. The support and right environment is there.. So he shows progress.

And this is my point with the school.. Ds can acheive.. He is a bright lad.. But put him in a class of 30, noisy, disorganised, no 1-1 and not even a TA in all his classes, having to put up with the silly pupils having a go at him all the time.. He is coming out exhausted, wound up and with results that aren't to his potential.

Slowly his grades are going down.. Because he just isn't learning well in class...with everything else going on!

A minimum of a TA in all his classes ( even shared) .. Would let him make progress.

I also think some of the tests can give a false impression of a child's capabilities, for example Dd3 got a level 3 in Reading comprehension at the end of year 2. I know she is a good reader and mecanically is able to find the answer in the text but she misses a lot becasue she doesn't get inference at all and answers very literally. Because she reached the pass mark she got the level 3 but I know there are many areas she is not at that level. No work seems to ever be done to taech her how to actually understand the text rather than just decoding it. IYSWIM.

My ds is bloody brilliant at tests. Doesn't mean he has the skills though, just means he can pass the tests.

I disagree with Indigo re KS 2 SATS being more valid; they can still be tampered with.

DS just had results for one GCSE exam, grades significantly higher than expected. I think the school have cheated. In process of sending evidence to exam board; not that I expect they will do anything.

Minx - true. In extreme cases (like your son's) schools will even cheat on external exams.

I guess my DD's not up to Year 6 yet so I have yet to witness that personally.

But OP - absolutely, 2 schools have consistently lied to me and told me she has made good progress when she has made no progress at all.

YES, YES, YES! My ds2 left year 2 seemingly doing really well, only to be re-assessed at his new junior school which showed he was a sub level lower than formal SAT results ... it's all a bloody con. Some schools 'ham' them up to add value to their results.

DS2 alegedly got level 2 for maths and English at the end of KS1. Revised to a W for maths,start of KS2, we weren't informed of revised level for English, but he certainly didn't get a L2.

However, his records weren't altered accordingly. I don't know whether school's can alter retrospectively or not. The school DS attended at KS2 obviously had to show some progression so.......

Strongly suggest you be aware of this for the future.

On a similar vein ds's school are very reluctant to discuss attainment and/or progression (wonder why?). The EP we saw recomended
Black and Wiliam Inside the Black Box www.teachingexpertise.com/articles/black-william-assessment-learning-118 and

books by Shirley Clarke www.shirleyclarke-education.org/index.html

I've only read Shirley Clarke so far (Secondary Assessment), but it was enlightening. Shows that AFL isn't implemented properly in our school otherwise they'd perhaps have some idea of what the child can/can't do, which would help them do their IEPs.

Sorry

Black and Wiliam
www.teachingexpertise.com/articles/black-william-assessment-learning-118

Shirley Clarke www.shirleyclarke-education.org/

Its a weird one this. I actually believe the year 2 sats for my DS. They said he was doing above his age and i believed them. My DS wants to be DR and asked to go for extra maths - which he is doing. I did not mention to the tutor at the time that DS is dyspraxic. He independently assessed him at about 2 years above his age.
Do you think that the reason my DS is in what the government would like to class as a failing school, is because they actually do know what level he is at and aren't afraid to assess correctly?

Yes. Some schools do cheat and some (most?) don't.

I'm not at all saying that most grades are wrong. Just that if you believe they're wrong they could well be.

For example the school EP assesed DD as a W while school were insisting she was a 1a.

I guess the majority of kids are done right. But the 'edge' cases like my DD and minx's DS definately aren't.

I know last year in my old rubbish school 2 kids with no SN scored worse on their KS2 tests then they did in their year 5 reports. That's why I think normally SATs are more accurate.

And of course most of the time their exact level doesn't matter. But if you're trying to prove inadequate progress (like I am) then it really matters.

A teachers perspecitive on SAT's and teaching manipulating results to the test.

mrread.blogspot.com/search/label/Testing

Keep forgetting the brackets

mrread.blogspot.com/search/label/Testing

I think (but wouldn't say 'know') some shool might fiddle things a bit.

However...... it would be daft to do this.

Any school worth it's salt always moderates any levels that go out to parents. Long long long meetings are held discussiing individuals progress. Their progress is tracked on the schools' systems and children falling below expected progression lines are highlighted.

It's not in the schools' favour to artificially inflate scores because the schools' target just gets increased; which
becomes even harder to reach.

Also; and there's a long history of this complaint wherever I have taught, if you have a level 3 reader in KS1 (i.e considered one of the 'good' readers in the key stage) you soon find that they get to KS2 the teachers there soon put the kid down to a 2a. The NC levels are supposed to be transferable but they are not. Same is said for KS2 to KS3 and KS3 to KS4.

Standardised tests (i.e SATs) are not really that standardised. Maths is probably more accurate but the other stuff varies wildly depending on who marks it.

SATs levels are really worth the paper they are written on.

this is much worse.

Basic conclusion. Schools can and do cheat. If you think they are lying - they probably are.

Sorry SATs are not worth the paper they are written on.

My class won't hit the school target given to us by the county (I teach yr 2) I don't care because I know I've taught them what I'm supposed to. Their parents expect ME to bring them up. They never read with their kids. Kids never do the homework. I'm expected to teach them how to use a tissue, apparently.

They are poor. We get no support from the parents. Will I 'change' their results? No, of course not.

I can accept that some school may inflate things a bit.

But, you see, 'naice' mummies and daddies do like to insist upon league tables so they can choose the best school for little Araminta and Tarquin.

The schools are under pressure too.

I'm not saying it's right though.

Spinkle - as a teacher can you tell us a bit more about 'the system'.

Our kids are targeted to make 2 sub levels of progress. What happens when they fail to make this progress.

Nothing?

The teacher gets told off?

The teacher is allowed to blame it on the kid's SEN and nothing happens?
????

How can I make the school care more about whether or not DD makes her targeted progress?

All pupil's progress are tracked on a graph - there is a progress projection graph for each pupil. This is set when the children are first assessed at school. When children 'fall below the line' then they are normally given some sort of intervention.

This intervention is usually group work in whatever area of concern is. It is usually delivered by TAs who follow a program. Catch up reading, Springboard Maths, Max's Marvellous Maths are some of them.

If it is believed the child is able but requires a 'boost' then they are in line for some 1-1. These are extra to the school day and teachers are paid to deliver this. This focusses on KS2 children mostly. This is a government scheme and used nationally. Only those children who they believe who would truly 'benefit' from this (i.e reach the magic target) are given it

There are many many reasons why kids under perform. They may not actually be 'ready' to jump through the hoops the government set out for them. Some of them come to school with f**k all breakfast and watch scary films in the evening (I have year 2s who watch totally inappropriate tv). Some teachers are crap. All my current SEN kids are due to shite parenting. None have an actual 'problem' - other than their social issues. Of course you can't blame the poor results on the SEN kids but areas of social deprivation have more SEN kids than 'naice' areas.

Do we get told off if the kids don't reach the target? No, but the headteacher will be pressured and the county will be watching the school like a hawk. Then there will be endless visit from a 'county advisor' about 'how to improve'. Annoying - a bit like a bluebottle bashing it's head on a window.

How can you make the school care about whether your DD makes her targeted progress?
I don't know if you can. Do you know the name of the SEN Inclusion Advisor? You could speak to them.

School is like a factory. It turns out children mostly the same. They hope they cover enough bases and learning styles for each child. They hope to teach each child enough to cover themselves. They don't really consider the individuals or take on board those who are different from the norm (or if they do, they hope they are 'too different')

Spinkle - thanks.

So, although the SEN COP defines 'adequate progress' - if your child doesn't make adequate progress there is nothing you can do / no way to make school care :(

Same if the repeatedly fail their IEPs?

They'll just change the targets...

Indigo - I received a message through a third party just before christmas 'X isn't surprised you are having problems with secondary, your ds was very weak academically in primary' . Was he? Then why was it only me that recognised it and pushed for support. Why don't his school reports highlight this?
Why don't his SAT results?

And if you keep asking questions they don't want to answer they threaten you with a complaint and harassment order.

Spinkle - it is a shame that teachers are afraid to state what you just have in RL. There are only so many teachers the LEA's could sack for whistleblowing.

I was recently told by head that a teacher was unprofessional (because they had spoken the truth). No doubt the head is a commensurate professional because he lies just about every time I speak to him.