School

[FanjoForTheMincePies]

Would really appreciate people's thoughts on this as it is going round and round in my head.

Saw Ed Psych yesterday at last re DD's school for next year. She was very very good indeed, welcoming of my opinion, knowledgeable and aware of DD's needs and issues.

I half wanted to keep her at nursery for another year (it's easy to defer here if they are still 4) but sort of knew that although she enjoyed it it was perhaps just the soft option and not best for her in long term (she doesn't sit still and just plays on her own and joins in the songs).

The Ed Psych basically said that she needs more input than she is getting now, and needs to go to special school, one for children with severe learning difficulties, for at least a couple of years, to work on her language. The language units attached to mainstream here, where she would love to place DD, need a child to have SOME language and conversation and even the moderate special schools here require a child to be able to sit still and turn-take.

This concerned me slightly as I have always felt DD is very bright and the professionals don't seem aware of this. DD appears like a small toddler with no understanding. I didn't want her to be consigned to a school that wouldn't push her enough later, when/if she starts speaking.

She was starting to read at 2 before she regressed, knew all her shapes and numbers, and generally seemed like a bright child. Now she has physical difficulty in speaking as well as having had an ASD-type regression (no DX yet).

However the Ed Psych was great, took this all on board, said she would make it clear in the application that DD has great potential and she doesn't see this as a long term placement, she might move later to a language unit or the other special school, definitely by age 8.

The school they are talking about has small classes of 6, pretty much 1 to 1, and desks are separated so children don't get distracted. On paper it is perfect for DD..as the Ed Psych said her number 1 problem is her total distractibility.

On the other hand she loves mainstream nursery and the other children, and a lot of the children at this school will have severe behavioural issues (DD doesn't and is gentle and quiet). I feel she will be missing out on interaction, although is this a moot point as DD doesn't interact, just smiles shyly at the children? The children in mainstream love DD at the moment and try to play with her, which is great, I am aware that this might not be the case as she gets older though!

Also, the Ed Psych said she might not like it as they will have to work hard on getting her to "dance to their tune" (accept instruction) and not just do her own thing. Which is true, but DD might suffer and be unhappy.

I do want to do the best for her though, she is starting to speak, she is bright IF she wants to learn and I know she has potential with the right input.

Any advice MOST WELCOME.

I won't flame you for saying that, in fact it's a big part of my concerns about this, DD is so happy at MS nursery although she isn't learning much, I would like her to learn to speak though, as it's so important in life, and this is the time to work hard on bringing THAT aspect of learning on, I feel.

No flaming here, either.

I know a lot of my posts have been banging on about acamdemic ability and progress, but I am on the whole more concerned with the expectations placed on dd1.

most of all, I didn't want her in a place where she could pootle about all day every day, and whrre the most that would be expected of her is that she lines up properly, or sits still at circle time (all very well sitting still, but if she isn't actually paying attention, or able to understand - what is the point of her sitting there nicely?!)

it's all such a balancing act, isn't it?

the worst thign I saw, when looking at the SLD schools, was the attitude of "oh, but they do love the sensory room" - of course they do! dd2 loves the sensory room - it's a great playgorund, but that is what it is - a play room, where some learnig may take place.

no one (I mena in the LA, not here ) is saying that dd2 should be pottering around, randomly pushing buttons with no overall plan of where she is going ot end up.

the child-led learning that goes on in SN schools worries me. dd1 would be the world expert on singing and Julia Donaldson books, if she attended the one we saw. her interest n both was (and is) intense. But being able ot perfectly quote all Julia Donaldson books is not goign to get her far in life (good party piece though ti is ). again, no-one thinks it would be a good idea to totally let dd2 set the pace of her learning, or to just gloss over the bits she finds hard.

and I really don't mean"set them all to work, chanting times tables is the only way to learn" by any of this.

it just does concenr me that (ime) SN schools have such lower expectations.

it was only when we pushed and pushed asking the question of whether dd1 would move on form her SN school setting, that we were told the gap was ever widening, and if she didn't start ot catch up then it was not likely to happen (ironically we were told this as an attempt to put us off the home programme we were using - the LA were trying to attribute her lack of learnign to that, rahter than the setting failing her)

it is so easy ofr ed psychs to say, especially when the children are so little, tha tmoving around is easy. but past Yr1 (sorry, not sure what that correltes to in Scotland. Yr 1 is 6 year olds) the "real" work starts to creep in more, and the gap between what SN schools provide and what MS schools expect starts to widen.

It seems to me as if she falls between the gap between special school and MS school.

This is often the case with HFA.

I always thought my DS was bright but his language skills were/are poor. He didn't have much of an opportunity to show others how bright he is.

A very good friend (now sadly departed ) who was a SENCO with an ASD son gave me a great piece of advice. She told me to identify specific problems and address them specifically. To this end, we paid for a private SALT for 2 years from when he was 2.5yrs. Wasn't cheap and wasn't a magic wand but it helped him no end.

He is now MS and has a reading age of 8. Reading has helped his language. He now displays sensory issues and so we are paying for sensory OT. Not cheap. Special school would be distressing for him also.

Though he's bright his autism and his autistic traits do stop him from learning. Being in a special school would not address his learning OR his autism (though it doesn't need 'addressing' as such)

Ideally there would be a MS school with an ASD base....but there isn't around here.

Visit the schools and see what you think. Get a statement with water tight provision in if she's going anywhere near an MS though.

Now I am really worried - the sleep counsellor was just here, she is a learning disability nurse, and when i told her the school they were thinking of she looked very shocked, sad and serious. So I don't know if that means it's an awful school, or things are bad for DD, or what!?

Sadly, we don't have statements here in Scotland and nothing is watertight.

She also said "make sure the Ed Psych knows her language is coming on"...

I do agree about expectations, but sitting still at circle time IS where we want to go with DD, as the reason she can't learn is she is so distractible she won't interact/listen at all.

IN fact that's exactly what the Ed Psych said, that is the foundation for everything, interacting and being open to learning, and it's what DD doesn't have, she thinks she would learn that better at the SLD school to start with. I am not sure though. If the children at the other school already sit and take part in circle time surely she could learn from them and grow to fit in? She thinks they won't accept her if she will not answer questions/share/take turns though, as that is their base point.

Just thought, maybe the sleep counsellor just doesn't like me and doesn't want to see me again at the SLD school.

Fanjo, I would just caution, that along with the emphasis on sitting still, there is emphasis on joining in/attending/participating.

honestly, "sitting still and not fidgetting" is NOT what should be being worked on.

your dd could sit still, and gaze out of the window (as dd1 did)

she could not fidget, but be daydreaming instead.

I ahve seen so many places where they proudly proclaim "oh look, they are all sitting nicely" when one child is engrossed in a fiddle toy, another is lying down thumb sucking, another is staring out of the window, yet another is totally withdrawn

I have lost ocunt of the times that I have been tod a school is pleased with dd1's progress becasue she is no longer gettign up/running away/resisting sitting at the table/circle time/whatever.

and yet when I peeped in throught he clas window, all I saw was a switched off dd1, who was muttering to herself, or stimming. not a child who was actively engaged in what is in front of ehr. beng passive, she did not resist when repeatedly brought to the activity, and she did learn to sit nicely there. but they could not "make" her learn, and had used up all their energy focussing on the wrong bit, imo.

you cannot make a child pay attnetion.

maybe I'm just more a a lentil weavery hippy than I thought but I died a little inside when I thought of dd1 jsut being taught ot conform - it didn't matter hwat hse was learning, as long as she appeared to be doing just as everyone else was

dd1's school now is totally flexible, and try to find a balance between dmenads placed on dd1 (does she have to be sititng at a table, or could they sit on the floor? does the activity have to be sedentary, or could it involve movement to appease dd1's need to fidget/move about?) whilst still making sure that it doesn't all run to dd1's agenda.

Yes, I agree, the Ed Psych said the emphasis would be on taking turns and sharing too.

But that can be a language skill, can't it - after all conversation is a turn taking thing (well, it should be ) and practice is required - a lot in our case.

Just because a child can sit still and can take turns does not mean that child can 'learn' any more than a wiggly squiggly one cannot. I've got plenty in my class (yr 1 - and mostly NT) who cannot sit still but can more than adequately 'learn'.

Kids need to be 'ready' to learn. In Finland they are not considered 'ready' until 7 yrs old. They have some of the best literacy rates in Europe.

Have you considered flexi schooling? (can you do that in Scotland?) I know you said you didn't fancy home ed but could be a compromise of playskills/socialisation that she needs.

i think the feeling is (and it is my feeling) that if DD could sit still and take turns she COULD learn, the question is will she ever be able to concentrate enough to learn.

i have to say I would be happy at the moment if DD ended up being able to speak and being happy, reading would be a helpful and useful bonus. Maybe my sights aren't set high enough, I don't know.

Before she regressed I had high academic ambitions for her too.

Fanjo,

it is so difficult when dc are very young.

you (one) don't want to set hopes too high, and be disappointed in unrealistic expecttions.

but you don't want to set them too low, and effectively write off any ambition.

I never knew what to expect form dd1.

what I aimed for,in choosing a school, was ot find somewhere that owuld alow her to be the dd1 I know at home. the dd1 that can ask for things (in whatever way - she was effectively non-verbal for a long time, o a mixture of vocalisation and gesture). the dd1 that is relaxed, happy, able to concentrate on the task in hand (not without a LOT of encouragement and support, mind you)

the dd1 who smiles a lot, who is cheeky and jokes about. the dd1 who can be deliberately mischievous (as any 6 year old can), and occasionally stroppy.

what schools had failed manage wrt dd1, was any of the above.

she was so scared and unsettled she withdrew. she didn't interact at all, even when presented with her favouritest htings ever - eg at one point, her most favoured book was Tiddler. she was never without it - to the point I had to copy and laminate a version jst for her to take everyhwere, it was always in her hand. she enjoyed "reading" it, but se enjoyed reading it with another person even more. her echolalia was very social - she would take turns, join in appropriately, and loved ticking off the register, or telling the time, etc (you have to know the book to get that!)

I sent it into pre-school with ehr, and they said she enjoyed it. I (stupidly, in hindsight) took that at face value.

and then one morning she was unsettled, and I stayed on for a bit. I read it with her.

the whole of the staff came over to see her, as she was being so chatty and interactive. she was doing what she usually did at home - lots of eye contact, shared eb=njoyment, pointing out the right fish as we went throught the story, quoting the next bit, even "answering" questions about the story. obviously, she didn't really understand the story, but she could answer whether the next bit was about the turtle or the mermaid, or which order the sea creatures came in. or who liked the story, and who thought tiddler was fibbing.

the staff all said they had never seen her like that - whereas I had never seen her NOT like that, iyswim?

and I knew then, that what I was aiming for was a place where she could be the same at school as she is at home.

we worked hard ot achieve that, and as you siad earlier, have had quite a journey.

but just as what I looked for when choosing a school for dd2 was somewhere she can be comfortable, and be herself, that's what I wanted for dd1. the rest will come, if it is going to.

but I didn't want somewhere where they were more concerned with getting dd1 to toe the line than teaching her, or than ensuring she is relaxed enough to be herself.

now that hse is relaxed at school, school can turn their attention to gently stretching her, and finding out her strengths, pushing on with those while supporting her weaknesses. when she wasn't relaxed, too much time and energy was being wasted on chipping away at things she could already do - if the time and energy had been spent making sure she was comfortable enought o talk, or relaxed enought to listen, then she owuld have already been doign the things they were trying to teach her (as she was at home)

Yes, I agree.

DD is very happy at nursery, I was pleased to see her cuddling up to her 1:1 at the Nativity, and she will sit on the knees of all the staff and is starting to speak to them a little.

So now the talk of "making her dance to our tune and not her own" is worrying me as it means she might be unhappy.

I have always believed the interaction comes first then she can learn, but I believe in doing it by making it "fun", not forcing her to sit still and learn, IYKWIM.

your story reminds me of when the SALT came to see DD in nursery, I was there, and of course could pick out loads of words that DD could say, the nursery could not believe it, they said they never hear any words, yet whenever I am there I hear lots of words. I wish they could see the DD I know too!

I know exactly what you mean.

dd1 used ot have SALT go into pre-school, because she was mute there. same SALT had seen her lively and interactive at home.

SALT still wasted her energies on pointless tasks for dd1, rather than focussing on getting her comfortable enough ot communicate.

that's why it is so impotant to try to visualise your dd in the schools when you go to visit - can you see her bounding in and grinning at everyone? or silently lining up while tuned out?

can oyu see her enthusiastically dragging a book off a shelf? or quietly settlign down in the corner, keeping out of the way?

I would say: when you look around, if ther eis soehting that niggles a little, ask. it may seem trivial to you, but their answr will tell you a lot. and you need as much info as possible - about the school, thoer aims, their procedures. sometimes even the way "oh, but we soon get them palying ball" is said can speak volumes!

don't leave a niggle to become a worry. get it clarified.

it will help you make the right decision.

yes DD runs ahead into nursery excitedly and dances around, I would love that for her somewhere else!!!

Thanks, it really helps to know what to look for when visiting schools.

I got the feeling I will only be offered visits to the SLD schools but I am going to ask to see the other options too.

You should ask for detailed information on what the 'intensive' input will be - esp. to her developing language. They may try to fob you off with vague glowing references to this and that - but keep asking what it will actually be in hour by hour, day by day terms ? Who will work with her ? What will they expect to achieve ? What methods will they use ? How will they measure success ?

Good luck if you get any answers !

I will, I will need to compile a list of questions I think!

Am not good at being assertive but know I have to be!!

think in terms of SMART (I know it's for IEPs, but...)

so any teaching they do should be (aim for/have in mind):

specific
measurable
achievable
realistic/relevant
time-bound

so, whenever you ask them about an aspect of teaching/the curriculum/how they would tackle somehting, check to see if it is all/any of the above.

it should be (and the waffley nonsense you often get, quite clearly isn't)

OK, I will write myself an essay covering it all I think.

Bump in case anyone can help me with this essay!