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Original poster

Aspergers and discipline - please help

29 replies

MotherJack · 15/12/2010 21:49

Hiya - my son has almost as good as been diagnosed with Aspergers in the last year - he has other serious medical problems which have meant he hasn't been diagnosed but we have all been going on under the belief that yes, he probably has Aspergers.

Today has been his 6th birthday and he had a bad day at school and the head wanted to speak to me as I collected him. She told me he had destroyed a sign board in the playground with a cricket stump, hit other pupils with the cricket stump and then been rude to a member of staff. He was punished for this behaviour at the time. I thought she had told me this with the belief that I would talk to him about his behaviour, which I have and he has told me tonight that he will not be allowed out to play tomorrow as a result of what happened today.

I realise that the "crimes" are serious but given the Autistic mind, does this seem right?

OP posts:
tabulahrasa · 15/12/2010 22:16

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're asking, why do you think it might not be right?

Original poster
MotherJack · 15/12/2010 22:27

Hi Tabulahrasa - I'm wondering if, given the fact that he has been made to understand what he did today is not right, if a punishment tomorrow for a day that may be absolutely brilliant behaviour-wise is right??

OP posts:
genieinabottle · 15/12/2010 22:35

I can see your point. And your DS is only just 6.

Discipline/punishment should be happening straight away with a child of that age, especially so a child with an asd.

My DS is 5, and has HF autism. I wouldn't be happy with late discipline either, as i don't think he'd totally connect what he has done the day before with a punishment the next day.

genieinabottle · 15/12/2010 22:36

sorry i don't know where i thought i'd read your ds was 6... Blush

genieinabottle · 15/12/2010 22:37

i should go to bed Xmas Grin ...yes i did read right the first time, your ds is just 6 y old! so it seems this kind of discipline is a bit ott.

tabulahrasa · 15/12/2010 22:39

ah the delay gotcha, depends on your son really - mine would understand fine that he was being punished today for something he did yesterday

Original poster
MotherJack · 15/12/2010 22:45

Thank you Genie. Lol at your age 6 confusion Grin

I just think that he won't get it at all and end up understanding that his good behaviour (usually is - tomorrow) ended up with his not being allowed out. What is that going to teach him????

I am also of the mindset that kids need fresh air and exercise.... and if they don't get it you can end up with a catch 22 situation of lack of fresh air and exercise... leading to bad behaviour, especially in boys I think.

I'm thoroughly up for a "misguided parent tour" on this by the way. It just flies in the face of everything I have understood about Aspergers and would love to learn otherwise Smile.

OP posts:
Original poster
MotherJack · 15/12/2010 22:49

Ha - delay in my typing abilities there Tabulah as we x-posted 10 minutes apart!!! My son tends to live in the moment.

OP posts:
tabulahrasa · 15/12/2010 22:55

see mine (also has Asperger's) at that age was perfectly ok with, you are not getting out today because of what you did yesterday, but I know other children wouldn't be

if you think he won't understand why he's being kept in - I'd mention it to school and say maybe he needs a more appropriate punishment

Original poster
MotherJack · 15/12/2010 23:15

That's what I planned on doing Tabulah... but I wanted to get a feel for whether I had been misguided - probably not - my instinct is, even for NT kids, that the punishment needs to be instant at that age. Thanks Smile

OP posts:
IndigoBell · 16/12/2010 10:32

Disciplining a child with ASD is a really tricky area.

All I can say that I moved my son from a school where he was constantly being told off because they viewed him as naughty - to one where he has never been told off because they understand what ASD is.

And consequently he is thriving. He has made 2 years progress in 1 term - largely I think because he feels safe.

I don't think it is ever acceptable to tell an ASD child off for being rude. During a social skills intervention you can try to teach them how to behave - but not tell them off for behaviour they don't understand is wrong.

Also you need more info re the cricket stump incident. Did it happen during a meltdown? Because once again telling ASD children off for having a meltdown is counter productive. They can neither help having a meltdown - nor what the do during the incident.

The school needs to keep on improving how they handle your son so that he doesn't have a meltdown in the first place.

I don't ever tell my children off for behaviour that happened at school. It is the schools responsibility to do that. Nor do I expect them to tell my children off for behaviour that happened at home :)

Original poster
MotherJack · 16/12/2010 12:35

Thanks Indigo. I agree - I would never tell him off for stuff that happened at school - it's their responsibility to do that.

As he brought it up, I just had a chat with him, no telling off - the cricket stump incident was not a meltdown by the way - it was a "game" with a friend... I don't know what subsequently happened and why he started hitting people with it.

I see what you are saying with the rude thing - especially as he said he was rude to the teaching assistant as she was helping him get ready for his part in the Christmas Play (head sheep, I believe Grin) and it was the wrong jacket and it had strings on it. I don't know why things like that upset him, but they do and I help him through it.

I feel like I should go in and talk to the head and get a feel for her acceptance and understanding of his condition. Do you think that is a reasonable course of action?

Excellent news about your son's new school. A friend of mine had exactly the same issue, and it all got rather nasty so they moved him to a new school who have been fantastic with him. You must feel a real sense of relief Smile

OP posts:
MrsMagnolia · 16/12/2010 12:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
MotherJack · 16/12/2010 14:10

I had a look at that thread MrsMagnolia. How awful for you! I hope things are ok at school now - for you as well. I was helping out in school once and got called over by a "lynch" mob of kids saying that x had hit y so x must be punished. When I spoke to them it turned out that y had gone to hit x, missed and x had retaliated and not missed!

My DS gets worse the more he is told off too.

By the way, does anyone have issues with getting through in dangerous situations? My son and his friend were playing on the way out of school and it all got very giggly and silly (nice to see Smile) but then sticks got picked up and it got out of hand. My son picked up a 5' branch and I could not get him to put it down - he was just laughing uncontrollably and kept swiping at me with it. He eventually hit me with it and it broke so I could get close enough to get hold of him. I lost my temper I'm afraid. Any tips for dealing with that?

OP posts:
cornyPrawnsdefrostJasonDonovan · 16/12/2010 22:33

can you imagine how this OP would have gone down on the main board? Grin
This has been a big problem for my ds in secondary, as he has been given detentions left, right and centre and has found them really difficult to cope with.He would go into school the next day knowing that he was going to be 'punished' (for something that often was related to his difficulties.) Was a major factor in his school refusal.

Oblomov · 16/12/2010 22:58

Am with you on this one. You do need to have a chat with the school. Let us know what they say.

Fava · 17/12/2010 01:12

Birthdays can be tough at that age.Firstly, they are a change to routine; secondly there is an element of overcrowding and additional attention which can flummox an AS especially if they have personal space issue;thirdly, the extra exciment, which would have built across a few days/weeks with christmas in the mix, can lead to a sensory overload, which may lead to a meltdown or to high activity (oh the joy of predictability with AS children!)

If the school has such trouble to control your son to the point that they need to continue a punishment to a second day, have they called in the Educational Psychologist and SALT to establish a plan?

Ime if a school believes an ASD child to be naughty and uses unbelievably inappropriate punishments and hints that you should continue the punishment outside school,they are unlikely to listen.

Re the cricket stump. Although I accept that there are many children in the playground, etc... Where was the adequate supervision to prevent escalating from hitting and destroying a sign to hitting other children?
I would argue that your son shouldn't be punished for their negligence. At 6yrs I expect the school to have had enough time to learn your child needs (including supervision levels).

Is the school on top with the IEP?

Ps. My ds (9yrs) still has great trouble in realizing danger to himself and others. Invariably he would pick up the biggest branch (he doesn't seem to do sticks!)

fightingtheurgetoscream · 17/12/2010 07:47

Agree with Indigo about not telling off if they're rude. Trouble is my ds is always being sent to HT for being rude. I gave school NAS advise sheet stating that AS children often appear rude but don't mean to be. Ds should be allowed to go to a quiet area when feeling stressed however in a recent incident 3 memebers of staff barricaded the classroom door to stop him leaving. Major meltdown ensued and he was excluded for 'persistent disrespect to staff'. Have just got sm in place so am hoping to see a big improvement in their attitude Hmm.

Original poster
MotherJack · 17/12/2010 13:45

Thanks for all of this. I'm going in to have a chat to the Headmistress at 3 - this has given me things to ask and also given me a bit more courage of my conviction.
Smile

OP posts:
cornyPrawnsdefrostJasonDonovan · 17/12/2010 14:35

3 members of staff barricaded the door Shock What age was he then? Outrageous.

fightingtheurgetoscream · 17/12/2010 15:54

He's 10 corny. I agree it's not on but couldn't appeal the exclusion as it was less than 5 days!

Original poster
MotherJack · 17/12/2010 17:33

You know what, corny, I think I should just cut and paste it with any reference to ASD removed, see what happens!!

I spoke to the head and feel much better - I didn't really have to say much and she put me at ease. They do seem to understand him and I'm not sure where he got that he was being kept in the next day from. She said that she didn't come down on him hard given his AS.

We agreed that despite him not having a formal diagnosis yet that an IEP could be put in place in the New Year. He is already on the "watch" list so they understand him and keep an eye out for development of behaviours etc.

Is there anything I have missed?? I need to write down my areas of concern, such as his anxiety over the issue perhaps.

Thanks!

OP posts:
Original poster
MotherJack · 17/12/2010 17:34

I found this for you Fighting....

Hi all,
I asked Steve Broach - the disability lawyer who was answering questions in the Treehouse E-seminar about informal exclusions and about unfair dicipline in school....There has been lots of talk about this recently and I though his response may be of help to lots of you....
By going via the events page, you can see the whole transcript from the seminar....I hope this is helpful :0)
An issue that has been coming up recently on the talkabout autism forum is about informal exclusions and also about unfair dicipline in school for children with autism. I caught the end of something about how this is changing on the tv the other day but not all of it. Is this too complicated to go into now or are there any tips you can give us that we can pass on if our children are effected by either of these?
Friday November 26, 2010 11:23 Claire R
11:25
Steve Broach:
Claire, exclusions are obviously a huge issue for children with autism. Anyone concerned about exclusions should read some guidance titled 'Improving Behaviour and Attendance' from 2008, available on the DfE website.
A critical point to note is that 'informal' exclusions are ALWAYS unlawful. The ONLY lawful way to exclude a child from school is under the official procedures for fixed-term or permanent exclusions.
The guidance also makes clear that children with SEN (including children with autism) should only ever be excluded as an absolute last resort. Sadly this guidance is often ignored - but it should be used by parents on appeals to the Governors or the Independent Appeal Panel to try to overturn exclusions.
Any unfair discipline used against children with autism can be challenged through a complaint or if sufficiently serious through a judicial review claim in the High Court.
Claire - Community Champion

OP posts:
Original poster
MotherJack · 17/12/2010 17:45

Also this link. You may have already seen it, but on page 2 or 3 it talks about legal duties to SEN regarding exclusion.

here

OP posts:
fightingtheurgetoscream · 17/12/2010 22:41

Thanks Motherjack,this is very useful.Am hoping that there will be no further exclusions as statement is now in place and a lot more support should be given. Fingers crossed anyway.