Please or to access all these features

SN children

Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on special needs.

Why is Speech and Language delay in ASD children treated different to SLD children?

75 replies

blueShark · 18/11/2010 20:03

In desperation to find different/supplementary way to help my DS develop his speech and language further (with the lack of SALT), I got in touch with a friend who works in ICAN unit.

DS (4) was initially treated with SLD for a while until given ASD with speech and language as a primary issue this summer. At the beginning the SALT sessions seemed to be very frequent until he was dx with ASD and although in special unit no sign of SALT to do an assessment nor provide the visits every 2 weeks as per statement (which is another battle I now and school SENCO and I are taking action).

The friend that teaches at the ICAN unit is telling me she cannot give me any specific tips since her expertise is not ASD and speech delay in ASD children is treated different.

She also told me that kids that are in her unit are progressing beautifully with speech but when given ASD dx are moved to different unit. Also the SALTs are busier to deal with SLD children rather than ASD.

Anyone that is a bit more tuned in to explain why? Do I have to search for a private SALT specialising in ASD? Current SALT still recommends attention and listening games (turn taking, object passing etc) but DS started combining sentences with I want, I see, Give me etc and using them in context so what is wrong in asking for a guidance to extend the language whilst I still do the attention and listening exercise which I think he also benefits from?

I have found some excellent tips from you people here on MN which have been a great help and also read both Hanen books and any book I find recommended here.

Thanks for reading and sorry for the long post.

OP posts:
moondog · 21/11/2010 21:13

Very interesting conversation and would make a great publishable discussion in a magazine like S/LT in Practice (although only really comprehensible to peopel who understand both ABA and SALT. Not many of those about.)

So many points I could expand on and comment frther on but would be here all night.

In short

  1. ABA isn't perfect-neither is SALT. ABAers poor at dealing with kids with more sophisticated language. They really need SALTs on board with that. This is what I work in with the ABA trained person in charge of my child's schooling. We have developed a wide range of unique apporaches that work and on which this person lectures and presents (and meets a terrific response every time) both nationally and internationally.
  1. I think some of the full on home based ABA programmes are weird and some use strange gestalt' cut & paste methods for language transplants that I can't agree with. However the peopel I wiork with are mature enoguh to allow us to discuss this maturely.My opinion is that not every person working with a child will ever agree 100% to all going on but a consisten common approach more valuable to child's well being than pools of dissent (basically differential reinforcement).
  1. I agree that LEAs can't fund lots of home based programmes.I don't endorse home based programmes. I wnat kids in schools with other kids. However, parents fight for this because they have no option. The model we are developing/have developed in many settings is one of ABA having an influence over everything-being the underpiinig to most of what we do.It's no more expensive than what we already do,probably less so as we don;'t need constant peopel floating in and out to add their two pennorth. We just get on with it.
  1. We need to get away fro misunderstanding that ABA is all about autisitc kids. It isn't.It applies to anyone, anywhere. ABA in the context of Autism is one of the many applications I am involved in but it isn't my main field of interest or expertise. I lie focussing on those quiet undemanding kids who fall further and further every year while noone even notices they are there. Sad
  1. With your example of asking your ds to line up, Stark, I;d use the Model/Lead/Test formula from Direct Instruction.

First.. I (ie adult) do it (child watches)

Next.. We (adult and child) do it

Finally.. You (ie child) do it.

Works in pretty much every eventuality.

My main area of interest is language as a barriuer to learnig .For us, expansion, elaboration and repetition are the way we learn, with liberla use of praise or correction. THis is a disaster for most kids with SN. The constant rewording confuses, the prasie and/or correction aither irritates them or causes them to zone out and they learn nothing from thier 'errors' (which really are learning opportunities' as deminstrated os beuatifully with PECS.You get what you ask for.) Hence my interst in Direct Instruction (following tight scripts to facilitate learning with no muddy areas) and TAGteach (removing language altogether, at least temporarily to give kids the headspace they need to work out for thmselves where they are gonig wrong) And PT methods like SAFMEDS where your LOs go into a different pile. Physical mafiestation of the fact that something went wrong.

When you start seeing kids take a sharp intkae of breath as they see the SAFMED go into the LO pile or you see thme stopping dead because they haven't heard the TAG, you know you have struck gold.

A kid who is thinking and problem solving.

StarlightMcKenzie · 21/11/2010 21:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

moondog · 21/11/2010 21:16

Sorry-appalling typing and grammar.
Looks like I've been on the cooking sherry. Grin
Not the case-just in from a very long walk in the moutains.

moondog · 21/11/2010 21:21

I also agree that many professionals reports are a stream of consciousness or a description of what thry saw.
Fine to focus on that briefly but what is going to be done about it?

Unless someone can come up with a solution, aint no point expanding at length on the problem.

SALTs do this a lot.

9-5, I take it that you are aware that RCSLT endorses ABA in its recently produced planning and commsioning document for ASD do you? Very badly put together and no reference to any really useful recent research but a huge step nonoetheless.
Here

moondog · 21/11/2010 21:22

And to develop the point I made earlier, I would like to point out that the ABA bod who supports the staff who work with my dd coudln't do it as effectively as she does without me teaching her about S & LT. It wouldn't work otherwise.

working9while5 · 21/11/2010 22:04

In terms of the narrative reports, I think this is just a symptom of the previously described issues: basically the remit in CQ3 is primarily diagnostic and/or discussing/explaining what is happening in the environment.

I will - ahem - fess up to having done this type of report on occasion. The instance that springs to mind was related to a nonverbal boy in Y1 who was stimming and rocking throughout classroom instruction before whacking someone because - surprise surprise - it gained him a passport out of the situation to the nice, calm "time out". The Ed Psych had been doing some "work" with the family - a young ethnic family who spoke no English - explaining very carefully to them that really it was all their fault for "giving into him" and not treating him in an "age appropriate manner" and, oh yeah, speaking in their home language to him.
Angry.

I must have written every single thing he did in an hour's period, documented every failure to co-ordinate eye gaze with vocalisation etc because I wanted evidence on paper that he was not simply failing to attend or being naughty or whatever other spin that crappy EP had put on it. I never got so cross in a meeting in my life. I wanted anyone who picked up my report to immediately see that this was a kid who was really, really struggling: to paint a very clear picture of what he was doing to refute the EP. I remember him saying wryly at the end of the meeting that I was "quite the fierce parent advocate" Grin. Of course, I know this isn't really what you're talking about here.. there was a clear agenda and a series of clear bullet points to illustrate these and refute his recommendations... but sometimes elucidating the problem in glorious technicolour has its place Smile.

moondog, great post. I need to learn more about Direct Instruction too, it would seem Smile. I have a feeling I wrote about it in an essay about two years ago as a natural teaching model for students with working memory deficits (as affording most evidence for transfer of info to long-term memory). Had a quick look at that document: I've been on mat leave for a year and three weeks so not quite up to speed Grin. It could be more comprehensive. Only 20 studies included and no info on how or why they were selected, many of them old etc? There's a lot more than that out there! I have been trying to access some of the articles at my uni library but it's not working for me, sadly.

moondog · 21/11/2010 22:52

'but sometimes elucidating the problem in glorious technicolour has its place .'

Indeed. And i see some terrific reports but if the right people don't see them and act on them, they serve little to no purpose.

The right person is not the Ed. Psych. or SENCO or paediatrician or headteacher. It's usually the untrained bewildered 1:1 who is looking after the child in question.

Unless what is in the report is transferred to her head and her everyday pracice it means bugger all.

I have often attended meetings at which the 1:1 isn't even present, yet it bristles iwth important looking folk rustling papers and throat clearing.

Hmm
signandsay · 22/11/2010 06:56

Can I just say how useful this is, I think I am probably one of lots who are 'lurking' here, not posting but reading and going, hmmm that could be really useful... thank you guys Smile

willowthecat · 22/11/2010 07:41

Yes - Many thanks from me too - this should be published really or put in a training manual.

working9while5 · 22/11/2010 10:00

Yes, but again doesn't this just illustrate the difficulties at a resourcing/systemic level?

When you have 4-5 hours to do something, it is very much case-dependant as to what you choose to do. It relates to that "magic wand" question, doesn't it? If you could change one thing....

A lot of the time, that may well relate to training an LSA.. but part of that (in our system) involves getting higher-level staff on board to recognise that as a priority/agree to giving time to training. In the case I mention, there really was untold damage being done to this young family. After the meeting/report, they contacted me to ask could I see them in clinic. At the meeting in clinic, the entire extended family (about 15 people!) came to talk through what I had said as they had genuinely begun to believe it was these young parents' "fault". We ended up doing adult-child interaction stuff just to build up their confidence that they were doing all the right things. Which they always had been. The school got on board and bought in training for the LSA at 20 hours.

Was it the most amazing intervention ever? No. It could have been a lot better if I'd had more time to plan it rather than having to just jump at what I thought was the most pressing issue. Did it take 6 hours and cost £450? No, it took up rather more than this some of which was undoubtedly then taken away from the rest of my clients. Could it have been more efficient? Yes. See point about planning above.

However, when you have a rogue professional out there whose complete lack of understanding of an issue is a potential risk to many families - particularly those that are already vulnerable and not the types to stand up and shout "back off, idiot" - sometimes what you do needs to be dictated by this. When a school doesn't get it at a very basic level and is categorising SLD as relating to poor parenting, that's got to be a priority too. Yes, ideally, you would have resourcing to go in and show them what to do and it would all work fantastically smoothly and they would be wowed by the efficacy of the intervention having seen it with their own eyes, but that's not how schools and LEAs decide things as we all know.

There are so many issues in cases like these. There isn't a straightforward answer right now. At the moment, there are such huge issues in terms of how our society views people with SN and how much they are willing to contribute to decent services for them that the children's workforce (there's a buzzword for you) is really not adequately trained or resourced on all sorts of levels. The specialists aren't specialist enough, teachers and LSA's are lucky to have any training at all, random professionals can choose a very specific "angle" on a SN (like "it's the parent's fault" Hmm) and get away with it.

In this context, training people in a particular methodology to effect change is only one part of a whole package. I suppose this is what I am saying about it being so powerful, too. Interventions that are undertaken need to be grounded in better understanding and respect of individuals with SN and part of that will involve more generic training/consultations/advice to point out the nose on people's face to them.

We need it all. We need solid evidence that a problem exists to release money/funds to meet that problem and we need appropriate solutions to those problems that can be sustained at local and school levels by everyone from the dinner lady to the EP.

That's the dream, and I recognise it's very far from the reality at present. However, sometimes I think that on a practical level, for an individual person (whether a parent or a professional) the only question you can really ask yourself to keep yourself sane is what is inside my sphere of influence to change?

For me as a professional, this involves thinking and reflecting very carefully on the holes in the system, being a part of boards like these so that I can support grassroots political activism and individual's efforts to make a difference to their child, training myself to improve my interventions (like this PT stuff), ensuring that the written work I provide is (in so far as is practicably feasible) detailed and analytical and can be used by parents in their fight against the system, challenging complacency among colleagues etc, questioning service delivery models and trying to come up with feasible alternatives etc.

What I have learned not to do is to waste energy trying to offer a quantity of intervention that is beyond my capability to provide (in the past this has led me to really fall behind and while providing some better intervention to some, has made me worse than useless to others). I have also learned that sometimes the role involves effecting change on different levels (as above). I have learned that within the context of 6-7 hours per child with most of that time tied up in a particular service delivery model that I have not designed, I can't actually do a lot of even the basic stuff I think would be useful for a child or a family or a school.

Anger and contempt at the current system is important - it can lead us to question, to act etc. My concern, sometimes, is that parents are so disgusted by their experience of a particular service as it is offered in the current flawed system that they decide e.g. all SALTS just blow bubbles and speak in nicey nicey voices and don't know much about anything. For obvious reasons, this concerns me. It depresses me beyond measure that this decision resonates with me so much - that I know these SALTs of whom you talk etc - but also that a potential resource with knowledge that could inform a multidisciplinary approach (including ABA) is wasted.

hotdoginabun · 22/11/2010 22:30

This has been a really interesting thread.

The MNs that have written this thread, and others on SEN, are pioneering in sharing their knowledge and their thoughts. This is how advances are made.

So rest assured 9-5 - you are making a difference.

MistsAndMellow · 22/11/2010 23:20

God yes, 9-5 and Moondog you really are! this thread is amazing Smile

DS is currently being observed at his special pre-school by a very nice lady who is looking to train other HVs about children on the spectrum. She has asked me if I have, perchance, "read any books or articles" myself during the last year. About autism that is.

Grin

I will be including references to PT in the lengthy tome to be supplied and have mentioned my "friend", the SALT Blush

Vikkile · 23/11/2010 01:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

blueShark · 23/11/2010 13:29

what an interesting and knowledgeable thread it has turned out to be, thx all to the contribution and advise, esp to the professionals. I was dreading I will not have any response being a newer MN member but this truly is a fantastic virtual community!

OP posts:
StarlightMcKenzie · 23/11/2010 17:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

StarlightMcKenzie · 23/11/2010 19:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

working9while5 · 23/11/2010 19:22

Ah Starlight, there's that old chestnut: social motivation.

Was it the AP social skills workshop today? Did they do "teaching interactions"? I really like this approach to social skills for older, more verbal students and pretty much use it to this day in my own sessions.

What I am also very keen on is Michelle Garcia Winner's approach (see www.socialthinking.com - there's an article on combining social thinking and behavioural approaches). It makes a lot of sense to me and fits in well with the approach you describe above, while recognising the blurry bits quite well. I am still working hard to operationalise it with my own students but had to go off on mat leave just as it was getting really interesting! Looking forward to making a lot more of it when I go back.

At your son's age, and in line with EBP, I would probably be thinking of a peer-mediated video intervention approach to maximise upon the natural ability you saw with this peer he loves. I could root out some references for you if you want? There used to be some great stuff online about it by Kathy Thiemann at Juniper Gardens but it has vanished Sad

StarlightMcKenzie · 23/11/2010 19:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

StarlightMcKenzie · 23/11/2010 19:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

StarlightMcKenzie · 23/11/2010 19:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

working9while5 · 23/11/2010 20:17

I think it must be much harder as a parent, but it does have an emotional cost as a professional. I have had various "troughs" when I have felt pretty crap about it all and my career so far has been about getting myself to a place where I feel I am doing the least harm within the system. I can manage being "in the system" in a specialist unit (though it has its flaws). I couldn't really in clinic.. it felt so futile at times, though I will say (hand on heart) that I did my best. I just know that it was frequently not good enough at all. I Along the way I have managed to bring about some change, but a lot of the time it seems hollow. For example, I tried to make clinic social skills groups as evidence-based as possible - direct instruction framework, structured tasks based on functional requesting, videotape + feedback... but it hasn't really worked. It lacks individualisation and behavioural contingency so it is as wishy washy as you like (and I don't run it, so had to keep it very general which I think has diluted it further). I find it very frustrating.
My current "answer" is to focus on learning more and more about the mechanics of language and communication in autism e.g. brush up my linguistic knowledge with reference to the disorder, ensure I know the research in my area as well as I can.. but I know it won't be the full answer. This forum has made me realise that I will need to revisit intervention techniques and data collection. I see Bangor in my future.. yet I also need to have another baby and keep my job and juggle all the usual life stuff.

StarlightMcKenzie · 23/11/2010 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

working9while5 · 23/11/2010 20:59

Something that's worth noting in terms of statements is how poorly they are understood out of the LEA, where it is largely assumed that if you say x in a professional report, x will happen. If I had never done ABA, I really wouldn't believe the extent to which loopholes can be built into statements. A colleague of mine, who I really rate as an SLT and who has made huge changes to service delivery in our area, once told me excitedly that a child that we had in common had "got everything asked for" in the SLT report. When I saw the statement, all I saw were get out clauses.. Can't think of a specific example, but say the SLT report said
"Child requires x therapy delivered by a qualified SLT with experience of y disorder delivering x therapy within a school setting to be reviewed and adjusted on a weekly basis", the statement might have said Child requires x therapy delivered regularly by trained staff". Well, maybe not so obvious, but basically reworded enough to have an alternative interpretation Angry.

In our area, we have no input into Part 3. We write an SEN6 which the LEA "interprets" in writing Part 3 Angry

StarlightMcKenzie · 23/11/2010 21:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Rachel2012 · 15/03/2012 19:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page