DS's behaviour today

[someoneoutthere]

Hi, it's tiredmummyoftwo, namechanged recently. I took DS (5.4, ASD) and DD to the park today myself as normally DD (3, NT) is pretty careful and I can spent the time running behind DS. It was going all fine untill DD asked for water. Although I took two bottles of water, I just gave DD the one DS was drinking from without thinking. As soon as DS saw DD drinking his bottle of water, all hell broke down. He started screaming and shouting and running towards DD to take off the bottle of water. He asked me to get the bottle off her and I refused. I showed him the other bottle of water which was identical, but it was no use. He kept trying to hit DD so that he could take off the bottle from her, but I stopped him physically. So we left the park as people started to stare. DS was non stop trying to get to DD in the car so that he could take off the bottle.

Now, I know I could have given the bottle to him and it would have stopped the crying and screaming immediately and we would have had a lovely afternoon playing in the park (DS does not have any sensory issues, so he was not having a sensory overdrive and there were only a few other people in the park and this is why I was trying to sit through the tantrum to make him understand that he can't behave that way). I know next time I can take different water bottles for both of them so there is no confusion over bottles as DS is having difficulties sharing at the moment. But I don't want to avoid the situation by making adjustments, I want him to learn to share. I know DS's ABA consultant would ask me to sit through the tantrum by not giving in, but it hurts to see DD so scared of him, telling me mummy please save me, I am very scared. She was so scared that she was refusing to sit in the car asking me if she could take a taxi home with somebody (she goes to dance classes in a taxi with her friends, so knows what it means).

Please tell me if I am expecting too much from an ASD child. I don't think I can do this for long as he is getting bigger and it will physically impossible for me to restrain him.

No I don't think you are expecting too much but you might be forgetting the rigid ASD thinking thing.

I had kinda forgotten about it until someone helpful made a suggestion about another person's DC with OCD tendencies - as I had been concerned my DS was getting a bit compulsive. And the penny dropped. .It's not complusion but rigidity of thought

He obviously had it in his head about it being 'his' bottle and nothing you said (i e reasoning)was going to change his mind.

You might need to 'program' him into thinking scaring his sister is also wrong.

HArd going on all of you though - hope things are calmer now.

How do I 'progam' him into thinking scaring his sister is wrong, any ideas? This is the priority at the moment, stop him being so difficult with his sister who thinks the world of him and sits through some of his hitting and kicking knowing she will get a hug at the end of it . I have never thought about rigidity of thinking as he is not that rigid or obsessive about things ( at least he does not have many obsessive behaviour or repeat many things except some DVDs, even then it's not the same DVD or TV programme he repeats, it's whatever he is watching on the day). May be he is starting to develop this without us noticing as he is normally quite flexible. He has no problem with change of routine, does not have any problem with unexpected changes to routine or anything he is doing. I am trying to do a diary of his behaviour and likes and dislikes at the moment to see what we can do to improve his behaviour and speech. Thanks spinkle for giving me some thought about what to watch out for.

Hi I am quite new to this but I have heard that social stories are good for this situation, I am sure some of the wise mn will be able to advise you on how to make one. HTH

Have dealt with similar by shouting , restraint, standing my ground, giving in, throwing conflict-causing item away, time out... Tbh nothing works all that well, but throwing it away or hiding it removes the focus, and standing my ground does (very slowly) help the subsequent episodes.

My DS was fairly easy going until recently. He's now 6.2. I think the effort of school has pushed him into overdrive with the rigidity thing.

A social story about hurting others being wrong might help. Constant reinforcement/policing will be necessary. You will have to ride the tantrum out too, I guess, and reward the 'calming down'. It'll get worse before it gets better. Your DD is going to need a 'safe area' too, I'd guess.

Have you spoken/had input from CAMHS on this yet?

Oh and safe space sounds good. Ive trained dd to run to another room when I tell her to, and am trying to get her to spot warning signs of frustration (growling, shouting, grumpy echolalia)

Hi, I feel for you and your dd. We have had similar situations with ds1 (age 8, ASD) and ds2 (age 6, NT). In fact we had a similar one today when ds2 accidentally knocked a gogo crazy bone off ds1's headboard and he completely lost it and scratched his face. Although in fairness, I have to say its unusual these days for him to do something that physical, he tends to be a lot more hurtful with words and also general screaming and shouting.

When ds2 was tiny, before we realised that ds1 had ASD, we thought it was just sibling jealousy. He is truly vile to his little brother sometimes and is heartbreaking to see as a parent.

The thing is, we know that they both absolutely adore each other really and these incidents leave them both very raw and emotionally fragile.

I hadn't really realised that it was down to rigid thinking until very recently. Obviously, I knew he was inflexible and a rigid thinker, but I never really considered that that was what was behind a lot of his outbursts.

We just had the EP in to observe him at school this week and she really helped me to get my head around it in her debrief phonecall. As she put it, he has a very narrow view of how things should be or how a situation should play out and if things deviate from that, he struggles to cope. He just can't handle things not being (in his mind) 'right'. Unfortunately, due to the lack of theory of mind, he is unable to understand that other people don't instinctively know exactly how he wants things to be, so that's why he explodes. She is going to be working on coping strategies with him over the next few weeks. She explained it as, because he has ASD, we can't necessarily change the rigid way he thinks, but what we can do is teach him new ways of coping with those thoughts, so his reactions to difficult situations aren't as distressing etc for both himself and other people.

The only thing that has worked for us so far, is a zero tolerance policy to physical violence of any sort. Any physical argy bargy and the instigator gets a time out immediately. (This is the bottom step of the stairs at home or the car with one of us stood outside it if we are out. If he can't calm down on the bottom step, he has to go and sit on his bed.) For ds2 (who is nt) this is a punishment, as he hates being separated from everyone else. For ds1 (the one who has ASD) its really just cool down time and invariably he comes back in as if nothing has happened and can't understand why everyone else is still cross or upset.

The other thing we have to do is try to explain how ds2 feels as if it were from ds1's point of view, by relating it to something he has felt or experienced himself. He is unable to think how his brother might be feeling when he 'goes off' at him, as he's just acting/reacting on impulse and totally in the moment.

So for example, in our case, ds1 has been on the receiving end of some bullying at school. We have had to use that to explain to him how upset and scared ds2 is when he verbally or physically attacks him. This really did help ds1 to understand how his behaviour affects his brother sometimes. Unfortunately, until he develops some better coping strategies, despite knowing this, he still can't stop himself doing it.

This approach does seem to work to some extent, although its still sometimes difficult to interrupt the behaviour when it 'erupts' and its too sudden to intervene successfully.

We try to do similar with good behaviour when appropriate and tell him what a lovely, kind big brother he is and how happy he has made his brother feel.

Perhaps sharing from a "she is drinking from my bottle" is a bit much for him right now. Could you start by something different - such as something where there is enough for both of them from the outset and he gives her half. So that it's an outright share, as opposed to him feeling like she is taking something of his, if that makes sense.

DS2 is quite happy to share in the sense that if I hand him 2 biscuits and ask him to give one to DS3 (saying "one is for you, one is for your brother, we need to share"), he willingly hands one over to his brother. But if DS3 grabbed a water bottle that DS2 was drinking out of already, he would most likely be less keen on sharing, as he would look at it less like sharing and more like "she took my water."

Agree with triggles .. Ds would have seen it totally in black and White " she took MY bottle".. And exploded..
However he does share ( and did when younger) if the rule was as with triggles biscuits senario.

I think ( and only IMO) this is where you save your sanity and pick your battles.
Now I do agree physical violence is not the answer no matter what.. So that is what I would concentrate on.
But to do this your ds needs to be able to communicate his point of view and emotions without hitting ... Which is the difficult bit.

So what we did was work on how to regonise those emotions, and what acceptable thing he could do about it. ( disclaimer this is not an easy route at all..).. So you just do this as simple as it needs to be for him to be able to access and use it. You know jumping up and down on the spot is a load better than a violent out burst and still gets rid of all the anger ( not so hot in the supermarket but hey you can refine it as he gets older).. So angry for my ds is : feeling aghhhhhh ( his words), tight tummy, fast breathing and wants to hit...
The stratagy ( when he was younger) is to stay on the
spot and jump his feet into the ground.
( being twelve now he has a much more socially acceptable stratagy.. And uses excersise and breathing... Although he still jumps at home!:))

hope that makes sense... Sharing is important but it's the black and White thinking withthe bottle that is a lost battle. lots of sharing in other situations..

Quick message from dh lol

" if someone took my pint without asking I'd be annoyed enough to make a fuss, and I'm a grown up without asd".

wow, lots of good ideas, thank you everyone. Lol at your DH Arsenic, he has made a very good point there.

DS is not at the stage where he can communicate about his feelings, although he recognises the usual emotions from a picture card or looking at somebody. In my NT way of thinking 'it's only a bottle of water', I forgot to think how he felt. Yes, I think I will save my battle for the more important things like violence. I will be using different make water bottles so there is no confusion. To be honest, thinking back, I am not sure if he wanted to hit DD, he was just trying to get the bottle off DD.

Triggles, DS is like your DS2, he will give the biscuit to DD if asked. I have been getting him to ask DD for his fav chocolate to see that DD shares with him, but so far he has refused to give dd a bite from his piece.

moosemama, we do time out with DS as well as stopping him playing with whatever he was doing at the time, but it's more cooling down period like your DS, he does not learn anything from it. I am planning on observing him closely this half term to see how we can change this behaviour or if anything works.

mariagoretti, DD has started learn the signs by herself now and runs for cover most of the time, but every now and then she becomes stubborn and tries to fight back.

Spinkle, we live in the U.A.E now, so we have been trying to cope by ourselves pretty much with the help of an ABA consultant whom we don't like much (she tells me not to hold DS's hand whilst outside knowing fully well that DS is a runner and one time put DS in danger by letting him go on the street). Still, there are not many people here who are trained on special need, so we keep her on board.

I have tried social stories with him (might not have done it properly as I tried to write the story by looking on the net) also printed off a picture from do to learn about no hitting, but sometimes DS just repeats no hitting DD and carries on hitting her. I have not had much positive response from people about carol gray's social stories book, so decided not to order it considering the cost of delivery to the U.A.E.

I'm not sure that making him give her a bite from his piece is actually necessary. After all, you wouldn't want him demanding a bite from someone else's, would you?

I think children need to learn basic sharing when it comes to food (such as "some for you, some for me" kind of thing), but I have to look at it like this - do you want him taking DD's water bottle or a bite of her food indiscriminately under the umbrella of sharing? Or would you rather he learn that while sharing is good, there are also boundaries - such as not demanding something that someone else has. Rather like sharing vs. respecting someone else's right of possession. I firmly believe that while children need to learn to share, they also have the right to have some things be their own - and something that has been designated as "DS's" such as his drink or his biscuit is such a thing. Just like he needs to learn to respect that something else is "DD's" property and leave it alone.

When it comes to sharing other things, such as toys, we work on sharing as in taking turns and sharing as in playing together, depending on what the toy is and how it's best played with (if that makes sense). Sharing together is for playing with a ball, colouring with crayons, blocks, or perhaps a book. Sharing in turns is for the Peppa Pig fun phonics or the writing board, due to their nature and size.

Triggles, DS's fav chocolate is milky bar buttons at the moment, sharing a bite does not mean sharing a bite from the same button, giving her one button is what I meant, sorry if I explained it wrong. For me,I would like him to share when I ask him, for example, this morning my neighbour's DD asked him if she could share his pringles with him and he said no despite me telling him to share. Now he was eating a big pack of pringles and he would not have finished the whole pack, but he held onto it as his prized possession and would not even put it down in case she took it. DD, on the other hand, would quite happily share her food if asked to (I know she is NT). May be because I come from a very large family, we always shared food and other things. When I was a child, if one of my friends visited and I was in the middle of eating something, I remember dividing it up to share with my friends (of course if it was something that could be shared).

We are also working on turn taking and playing together, but as it is with DS, he would quite happily ask DD to do incy wincy tickle on him, but will not do it on DD when she asks.

someoneoutthere - yes, I did misunderstand that, based on the "bite from his piece" comment. LOL Is it maybe that (in the example of the pringles) he looks at that container as "his" and did not like her reaching in to his container? He might be more willing if you maybe said "let's put some in a bowl for you, and some in a bowl for her" so he still has his own container that's just his.

DS2 is all about boundaries. He's happy to share with DS3, however, once he considers that his boundaries are established (such as his bowl, his cup, and so on), then he is less keen to have DS3 touch it.