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When SALTs get over their obsession with bubbles, - do they move onto animals?

28 replies

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 12:44

WHY does ds have to learn how to class farm and jungle animals?

He doesn't even know what a farm or a jungle is. He has no interest in animals. Class isn't an area he struggles with on a general level.

WHY?

OP posts:
Lougle · 11/11/2010 13:11

I would think it is because animals are a step away from people.

Dogs are dogs
Cats are cats
People are people.

Not all animals with 4 legs are dogs. Not all black-furred animals are cats. You have to take all the elements in together to make a decision about what sort of animal it is.

With people, there is a lot of variable information too.

willowthecat · 11/11/2010 13:14

I don't think it is unreasonable in itself as a goal but will they acknowledge the classification he can do with other items ?

MistsAndMellow · 11/11/2010 13:19

We took DS to a farm at the weekend and he was quite cross that there were rams (thought they were goats) in with the sheep. He kept saying, "No, not a goat!"

Animal classification is very important to him Grin Jungle animals and farm animals are different things and never the twain shall meet - except that he puts penguins in with the lions and elephants, well they're all zoo animals...

I don't see why it's important if he isn't into animals.

What does he classify out of interest? LOL at SALT and bubble obsession too.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 13:44

Yes, Lougle I've heard that argument before. That animals have faces and so working on distinguishing them and categorising them is helpful for learning the skills to eventually learn what people's faces mean.

Perhaps that's it. But I'm not really convinced.

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Bluesunbeam · 11/11/2010 13:57

Yep we've been through the animals too and then moved onto food!

Ds still can't get the classification thing and I'm not sure why it's so important but I struggle with all the speech and language problems as a whole!

I quite liked the bubble stage.

Good that your ds can class generally - did you teach that or can he just do it?

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 14:02

No, we taught it.

He had to sort first. lots of pictures of furniture on one pile, food on another.

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Bluesunbeam · 11/11/2010 14:27

Been thinking this through and ds does classify but seems to be things that interest and motivate him.

Trains are diesel, electric or steamies and diesels are then broken down into their class numbers.

Also food is food, in general, or sweets.

Might try and work on this.

I was having such a downer over his speech and language but this has helped.

Sorry for hijack, sometimes reading someone elses posts help with clarification!

oddgirl · 11/11/2010 14:33

I think classification helps with increasing vocab-we sort language by putting into our filing cabinet of a brain and when we need a word we can retrieve it from the correct file-ie animals/plants etc...children with speech and language problems basically have a pretty random filing system so have problems retrieving and expanding vocab. A good game to play is actually odd one out as it really helps children see things in groups and categories...
hth

Lougle · 11/11/2010 15:10

The thing is, like it or not, classification is inherent to our society.

Nice behaviour vs Not Nice behaviour
Good vs Bad
Happy vs Unhappy
Angry, Sad, Tired, Uninterested.

With people, to understand them, you have to be able to classify certain behaviours and postures and other body language, and tones of voice, facial expressions, etc.

I think Amberlight expressed it really well, in that we all store social information in 'files' within 'folders' within 'filing cabinets'.

If you can't classify, then you can't file correctly. If you didn't file the information correctly, it is useless, because you either have to search through everything to find the right bit, or you simply can't find the information in time.

For the NT population, classification is innate, instinctive, immediate.

For people with ASD, they can sometimes put the 'file' in the wrong folder, or even the wrong filing cabinet. Then get distressed and confused when they can't find.

For my DD, she files facial expressions in the wrong 'folder', so she often interprets me being cross as being 'funny' and starts laughing hysterically.

So despite the delivery being slightly odd, I don't know myself if it is entirely helpful to think of it as 'he's not interested...' because we don't tend to be interested in things that are very difficult for us. But I suppose you could ask if it is classification that is being taught, and suggest that he gets to classify things he finds interesting?

Lougle · 11/11/2010 15:10

x-post with oddgirl there.

cansu · 11/11/2010 15:11

I think that SALTs have a kind of repertoire of activities and sorting is one of them. We have been through all this and when it is useful vocabulary or concepts then fair enough. After sorting furniture, toys etc we were told to do sorting of transport into land, sea and air! This is clearly madness as ddd2 has no idea of this concept so how can she sort them according to meaningless criteria! Sending sympathy your way as they will not chnage this repertoire. We also had one who spent endless sessions trying to interact with dd2 with a big puppet... Now if it had been a tweenie or something she was actually interested in she might have got somewhere!

Bluesunbeam · 11/11/2010 15:29

I like amberlights idea of files within folders within filing cabinets!

Ds definately has a filing system of his own when seen like that.

We get laughed at when cross and it drives me mad - maybe not now though.

Lougle - that all makes so much sense and I'm Blush that ds is 7 and I still haven't got a handle on it all.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 15:40

Can you lot tell me if this was very rude or not.

Had an appointment with the SALT today. I observed a session and then had a chat afterwards. Time was getting on and then she said 'right, we have to be quick and set some targets'. I offered to come back next week but she said 'no, let's do them now. Let me just go and tell them I'm going to be a bit late', so she popped out.

She came back and we did 3 targets. SHE said 'let us have a fourth, we can quickly add another one'.

Then there was a knock on the door and a woman came in and said TO ME 'Mrs X has to finish now because she needs to work with the children on the base'. To which Mrs X replied that she would be just 5 minutes.

This strikes me as incredibly rude. Surely Mrs X is capable of managing her own time, but if not, the 'woman' who came in should not have directed her comment at ME but to Mrs X.

Was this verging on bullying, given the meeting I have just had with the school where I kicked their butts. Or is it that this 'woman' has heard about the drama and wanted in on it?

OP posts:
Lougle · 11/11/2010 16:35

That is very rude.

However, perhaps given the fact that you kicked their butts, perhaps she was trying to 'rescue' the SALT, and had wrongly interpreted her going out to say she was going to be late as meaning that she 'couldn't get away'?

I only say that because there were times as a nurse when we would say 'if I'm not out in x minutes, come and rescue me...' Blush.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 16:47

Yeah. I know that stuff happens, but you don't address the PARENT as if they are the problem. I was trying to get away actually.

Anyway. I put it on another thread and have got over it Grin

OP posts:
Lougle · 11/11/2010 16:55

The alternative, is that the woman was cross with Mrs X for spending more time with you, when she knew that it would cut other children short, and you were caught in the cross-fire. There could be ongoing simmering.

working9while5 · 11/11/2010 19:04

With reference to classification, it is an important skill in learning as well as in language retrieval. The reason that it tends to be suggested with reference animals/transport etc in a generic SALT clinic is that tends to appeal to the broadest spectrum of kids that come to SALT and resources for new equipment etc tend to be quite limited. Planning time for therapy targets is probably about 10 minutes a target when you are dealing with a clinic caseload so the opportunities for individualising it so that it makes sense in the context of the child are very limited, unfortunately. So out come the handouts.

In terms of isses with the idea of classificaton being non-functional, it depends on the view you take of how language intervention should operate, I guess. There's a 100% functional approach and the tackle-the-underlying-impairment-for-functional-gain approach.

Teaching classification based on your own specific interests is going to be more functional but in terms of school/life etc, the fact that you're not interested in farms or jungles or household furniture is a bit of a problem when you come across everyday vocabulary and don't understand it because you paid no attention to it because it doesn't interest you.

The way I look at this is that I (as an NT person) decided very early on that I had no use for Maths. None. All the options that I made in my entire academic career avoided anything computational. I found it difficult so it didn't interest me and I avoided it. Academically, this didn't affect me one whit. I have two first class honours degrees - one in English Language and Lit and one in Speech Therapy.

Unfortunately, however, I am now doing an MSc and seriously struggle with the stats. I find budgeting for bills difficult etc. I make stupid financial decisions.

The fact that I don't like something doesn't mean I will never need those skills.

In the same way, learning to categorise vocabulary so that you can retrieve it may not be a huge barrel of laughs but it is designed to have long term functional validity. It has bee a feature of every ABA programme I have ever encountered - object by function, categories, receptive-by-feature-function-class.

In terms of the long-term picture, what I have seen with students with autism at secondary is that they can have huge technical vocabularies related to their specific spheres of interest but massive gaping holes in semantic knowledge elsewhere. Functionally, this translates into them feeling overwhelmed by the content of lessons that bore them and "tuning out" and also contribute to misunderstandings in conversation with adults and peers.

In terms of teaching students with autism, when basic underlying conceptual relationships are missing it means that a huge amount of time is wasted revisiting and plugging in these gaps when you have a lesson, say, on ecology and have to learn information about different climates but you don't even realise that polar bears are animals. Given that students with autism have difficulty rapidly categorising based on incidental learning and experience, this is an issue worth addressing.

I have seen quite bright students stumble over seemingly "obvious" information.

I know that public SALT provision is terribly watered down and may seem nonsensical as a result as everything is so generic. However, it doesn't mean it's all crap y'know Grin

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 19:15

My ds is a world class classifier though. He just finds animals REALLY boring and doesn't know the difference between a farm and jungle and doesn't yet have enough language to understand an explanation, - although I suppose we could try.

The SALT even told me he was brilliant at classifying. Maybe this is all that's left Grin

OP posts:
StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 19:17
OP posts:
StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 19:20

'It has bee a feature of every ABA programme I have ever encountered'

Hasn't basic maths been a bit necessary as well as analytical skills? I'm sure you can't be as bad as you think Grin

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working9while5 · 11/11/2010 19:43

I always avoided doing the maths then, too! I remember doing maintenancey type things with some sort of cauldron game. Long time ago now! That's the joy of an ABA team: others can do the programmes you struggle with!

How is he classifying then? Sorting into piles? What can he classify? Where has this come from? Did it relate to comprehension e.g. where does a cow live? where can we see lions? I am a bit confused. Sorting and classifying can be used in many different ways, I guess.

Have you ever come across the Blank levels of questions? They are OLD but I find them useful in planning "next steps" sometimes in terms of comprehension.. if that's what this target was? Confused Level one is very ABA Grin

Blank Levels of Questioning Model

EXAMPLES OF LEVEL ONE QUESTIONS
A. SCANNING FOR MATCHING OBJECT
(Find one like this)
B. IDENTIFYING OBJECT BY SOUND
(Show me what you heard)
C. IDENTIFYING AN OBJECT BY TOUCH
(Show me what yocu touched)
D. NAMING AN OBJECT
(What did you hear?)
E. NAMING AN OBJECT TOUCHED
(What did you touch?)
F. NAMING AN OBJECT SEEN
(What is this?)
G. IMITATING A SIMPLE SENTENCE
(Say this...)
H. REMEMBERING PICTURED OBJECTS
(What did you see?)
I. REMEMBERING INCIDENTAL INFORMATION
(What did you see?)

EXAMPLES OF LEVEL TWO QUESTIONS
A. SCANNING FOR AN OBJECT DEFINED BY FUNCTION (Find one that can?)
B. DESCRIBING A SCENE
(What is happening?)
C. RECALLING ITEMS NAMED IN A STATEMENT
(What things??)
E. RECALLING INFORMATION FROM A STATEMENT
(Who? What? Where?)
F. COMPLETING A SENTENCE
(Finish this?)
G. CONCEPTS: NAMING CHARACTERISTICS AND FUNCTIONS OF OBJECTS (Tell me its?)
H. CONCEPTS: ATTENDING TO TWO CHARACTERISTICS (Find one that is...and?)
I. CONCEPTS: IDENTIFYING DIFFERENCES
(How are these different?)

EXAMPLES OF LEVEL THREE QUESTIONS
A. SCANNING FOR AN OBJECT BY INTEGRATING VERBAL AND VISUAL INFORMATION (Find one to use with?)
B. DESCRIBING EVENTS SUBSEQUENT TO A SCENE (What will happen next?)
C. ASSUMING THE ROLE OF ANOTHER PERSON
(What could?say?)
D. FOLLOWING A SET OF DIRECTIONS
(Do this? then this?)
E. ARRANGING A SET OF PICTURES IN SEQUENCE (Make these into?)
F. FORMULATING A SET OF DIRECTIONS
(Tell me how?)
G. FORMULATING A GENERALISATION ABOUT A SET OF EVENTS (What happened to all of these?)
H. FORMULATING A STATEMENT TO UNIFY A SEQUENCE OF PICTURES (Tell this story.)
I. CONCEPTS: IDENTIFYING SIMILARITIES
(How are these the same?)
J. CONCEPTS: SELECTING AN OBJECT BY EXCLUSION
(What else??)
K. CONCEPTS: SELECTING A SET OF OBJECTS BY EXCLUSION
(Find the things that are not?)
L. CONCEPTS: CITING AN EXAMPLE BY EXCLUDING A SPECIFIC OBJECT
(Name something that can?but is not a?)
M. CONCEPTS: CITING AN EXAMPLE BY EXCLUDING A CLASS OF OBJECTS
(Name something that is not a?)
N: CONCEPTS: DEFINING WORDS (What is a??)

O. UNUSUAL IMITATIONS (Say this?)

EXAMPLES OF LEVEL FOUR QUESTIONS
A. PREDICTING: CHANGES IN POSITION
(Where will?if?)
B. PREDICTING: CHANGES IN STRUCTURE (What will happen if?)
C. JUSTIFYING A PREDICTION
(Why will??)
D. JUSTIFYING A DECISION: ESSENTIAL CHARACTERISTICS
(Why wouldn?t it??)
E. JUSTIFYING A DECISION: NONESSENTIAL CHARACTERISTICS (Why would it??)
F. IDENTIFYING THE CAUSES OF AN EVENT
(What made it happen?)
G. FORMULATING A SOLUTION (What could you do?)
H. FORMULATING A SOLUTION FROM ANOTHER?S PERSPECTIVE (What could he/she do?)
I. SELECTING A MEANS TO A GOAL
(What could we use?)
J. EXPLAINING A MEANS TO A GOAL
(Why should we use that?)
K. EXPLAINING THE CONSTRUCTIONS OF OBJECTS
(Why is?made of that?)
L. EXPLAINING AN INFERENCE DRAWN FROM AN OBSERVATION
(How can we tell?)
M. EXPLAINING THE LOGIC OF COMPOUND WORDS
(Why is this called??)
N. EXPLAINING THE OBSTACLES TO AN ACTION
(Why can?t we??)

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 11/11/2010 20:04

No. They look really useful.

I have come across some matrix type things very similar from MD.

Anything that gives me a structure to what I am trying to do is soooo helpful. We have patchy outside ABA provision now. It was good but we are winding it down due to finances and have tutors who I have good reasons to keep on but I'm not doing it for their ABA skills iyswim.

I can't remember the structure to classifying but we usually start with sorting two distinctly different classes. Then we do odd one out type questions. i.e. find me the one that is furniture. Then we ask intraverbally 'an apple is a type of ? food', then we do interclass 'what type of food is an apple?' then features. then function 'what can you eat?' I dunno. I can't remember exactly but ds is quite good at it.

Take your point about still covering the things he isn't so interested in to keep the balance though.

OP posts:
moondog · 11/11/2010 21:03

You'd have this sort of categorisation programme done and dusted in a week or so with a PT programme (which operates of course on principle of free opererant behaviour.

You'd do hundreds if not thousands of discrete trials in the time it took a SALT working the standard way to unzip her bag.

(Did you get those PT slides I sent you?)

moondog · 11/11/2010 21:04

I like the Blank model too, very much.
It feels right and is very easy for non professionals to grasp quickly and to use as a foundation for their work.

WetAugust · 11/11/2010 21:27

nah - we went from bubbles to jigsaws.

Biggest waste of time I ever had. (with apologies to Moondog who's a very competent one).