I have yet to meet a MS teacher who welcomes SN kids

[donkeyderby]

I haven't met millions of teachers and TA's, of course, but out of those I do meet socially, none have expressed positive views about the presence of kids with SN in their classes.

Please tell me that some MS schools enjoy having children with special needs in their schools

Marne - I remember all those threads you started, how much you didn't want her to attend MS.

An amazing outcome in the end?

Are you now happy with her being in MS?

Iam shoked at how well she is doing, i never thought it would work out, she loves school and last week i asked her 'what did you do at school today' (a question i had been asking every day since she started and had no answer) and she answered 'i did some puzzles' , i was begining to think i was never going to get a answer from her but she seems to be understanding language so much more since being at school.

I am very happy with her being at MS, i think if she went to sn school i would always of wondered 'how she would have coped with MS'so i am pleased with the outcome (so far).

I'm glad there are lots of positive experiences on here.

The person who said teachers are worried because they don't get enough (hardly any) training in SEN/SN is right I think.

I sometimes feel that inclusion is being foisted on schools by the LA's and not all schools are ready for inclusion. Too many parents have a battle on their hands, but then from this thread, it obviously can be done.

Some of the best training and education about SN that I have had has been from the parents.
Not the yelling, stomping and accusing sort. The ones who are prepared to educate you about their child's condition and how it needs to be handled to ensure the child is happy and able to access the curriculum as much as possible.
The ones who understand that it's a partnership.

Marne - that is such good news. I'm really really glad for you and for her.

Yes, donkeyderby. Not all schools are ready for inclusion or able to be fully inclusive e.g. schools with no ramps or lifts can't be fully inclusive for wheelchair users, for example, but also a small school with nobody trained in PECS or sign language might not feel able to fully include a child who communicates that way.

LAs will shove any child in mainstream and say schools just have to cope. Well, that's not reality. All schools should be inclusive but it takes ££££ and willingness to make that happen. And there will always be some children for whom mainstream isn't inclusion and SS would actually be far more appropriate.

At the same time, there really are some wonderful SENCOs out there who make it their business to train teachers in whatever they need to know and adapt the school to your child's needs.

For example, they deliberately held the fire alarm drill on a day when they knew my DS would be absent - because fire drills upset him.

For example, the background on the interactive white board in my sons classroom is always set to purple so that he can read it better.

For example, one dinner lady always asks DS how he is before he goes back in after lunch play.

Little things, which were easy to do, and didn't require a training or money, have added up to a tremendous overall difference.

So don't despair.

Hmmm, what about teachers that don't understand the partnership thing and present IEPs as fait accompli and tell you it was set by county?

I live in a deprived-ish area. Engagement with parents is always high on the agenda. That is because parents aren't much interested in engaging and are considered 'hard to reach' and not too involved in their children's education. But I'm practically begging for an audience and being refused.

DH and I went to see a posh school in a posh part of the county (we have to sell our house to pay off tribunal and ABA so may as well live next to said posh school if it can meet our ds' needs). We spoke to the fab SENCO and gave away more details than was perhaps sensible about our past battles with the LA and school. We apologised and said we're probably the last kind of parents she would want at her school.

Her reply 'oh no, all the parents are like that here so we make sure we have very good communication strategies in place so they all know what is going on as they all want a say in it'.

I learnt a lot. DS is in an outstanding school in a deprived area, with lots of SN children. They pride themselves on raising the below average to above average. BUT, they are used to running the show and 'sorting out the parents' I suppose, or getting it right 'despite' the parents.

This posh school is also outstanding. Pride themselves on their good league tables and inclusive attitude to SEN. They are used to 'managing' parents through good communication strategies. Perhaps they also do well 'despite' the parents, but actually, it was the first time I ever realised that in some situations the posh schools actually have the worse deal in terms of the parents.

From all the experiences shared on here, isn't the situation just the same in all walks of life? You get 'good' teachers and 'bad' teachers - to which we all have an opinion as to what qualifies you for each side. You get 'good' parents and 'bad' parents but you could also say 'good' paediatricians, ' bad' paediatricians, 'good' bus drivers, 'bad' bus drivers.
I had a 'bad' experience with a teacher, with the school backing - moved schools and had a very good experience. I know parents at the second school that feel they have 'bad' experiences and friends who have been taught by the same teacher that gave my DS such a 'bad' experience that have had good experiences.
Real life is not a generalisation.

Dd is at a school that welcomes all SEN and caters for them outstandingly well not only my opinion but also OFSTED.
There is a high percentage of SEN children because of their reputation but they welcome and fully include them all whatever their needs and however challenging.
Dd has had four different teachers there so far and each and everyone of them was happy to have her in their class and are sensitive to her particular needs.
Ds is at an autism base attached to a mainstream secondary. He isn't an easy child but the school handle him with skill and sensitivity.
It will be his transition review next month and we are pressing to keep him there for sixth form. The LEA are dithering, the school could have easily said that the resource is a five year placement and had him placed elsewhere BUT they believe that they can meet his needs and want to keep him.
So at the review the headteacher, head of sixth form, head of upper school will all attend to put pressure on the LEA to agree his placement.
I'm under no illusion that all schools are the same though as I moved both my children from schools that didn't cater to their needs and had no intention of trying to either.

We have had a mix of good and bad teachers, but one thing I can honestly say that all of them have been genuinely fond of ds. In our case its the school that hasn't been set up right to cater for the inclusion of SEN pupils. Fortunately, under the new head, this does seem to be changing, but its a slow process and often two steps forwards three steps back.

Ds's teacher this year has put in a lot of time and effort with him since day one and it has made a big difference. She struggles with him sometimes, as she has no experience of ASD, but she is trying hard to learn as she goes along and actually wants things to improve for him. Having read ds's observation reports, quite frankly I think the woman must be some sort of saint to cope as well as she does and still have such a positive effect and I am so grateful to her for caring and making the effort. We do have a good dialogue and she had made herself available to speak to me after school for what sometimes turns out to be quite prolonged discussions.

Its true that I'm the one that had to bring in outside help and push for SEN support for him, but I think that's down to a lack of systems handed down by the previous Head and SENCO more than anything else. Things are still a long way from perfect, but we are doing our best to work together and having already seem a big improvement in half a term, I am hopeful for the rest of the year.

I'm too rushed to read the whole thread in detail (yet more vomiting children here at the moment) but I agree with whoever it was who said that in the majority of cases its not the teachers' fault, they simply don't get the training they need around SEN and inclusion and thinking about it this would be very difficult to do anyway, as there is no way that they could be trained to cover all the possible variations of SEN that might or might not appear in their classroom in any given year.

I do still get cross/upset that his problems weren't identified at a younger age, especially when I was flagging them up myself, but I don't blame the individual teachers, who for the most part have always been very good with him.

Well, that's not entirely true. There is one teacher who I am and probably always will be very angry with. This is because she has managed to screw up a year out of each of my dss' education so far due to her own mental health issues and apparent inability to teach or control/manage her own classroom. It was her that caused ds1 to spiral downwards and eventually go into freefall last year and I am convinced if he had had a better teacher (this one is notorious in the school) he would have coped a lot better with the transition to juniors. She had pretty much the same effect on most of the class though, regardless of their abilities or educational needs and they have spent the term so far this year undoing all the damage she did.

With the exception of Ds1's current teacher, my kids' mainstream school loves having my kids around. That's despite some extremely challenging behaviour from DS1. DS2's teacher was actually worried that we'd move DS2 to a special school.

DS1's year 1 teacher did find DS1 difficult, at first, but by the end of the year they had a really close bond. She's a character who tends to have a really good rapport with tough kids, but her usual levels of firmness and control were too much for my demand avoidant boy. Once she learnt to relax, though, she realised he was actually achieving loads and the effect was self-propagating.

I'm firmly of the belief (and not alone in the belief) that his current teacher shouldn't be teacher any 6-7 year olds, mind, never mind those with SN. She has the attitude that he's a naughty boy and that she will fix him. Fat chance, because she's already made it onto his "I hate her" list. That's an achievement which usually takes months, if not years and is virtually impossible to reverse :(

It depends on the situation. SN children cost more but how much a school is willing to spend depends on their attitude. Ds is in ms and although he wasn't progressing much academically he seemed on the whole happy. School was willing to accomodate us in paying for transportation for special classes etc.

However, it just takes one bad decision to bring the make me realize how little they understand ASD; that and a refusal to admit it. In a way, it has been a blessing because I feel ds can achieve more and is now taking action to move him to a sn school. However, in the meantime, school, and his new teacher, who is lovely, are trying to persuade me to leave ds there, and has put in weekly cookery lessons(group of 5), commmunication group sessions twice a week run by a teacher, talking about social skills programme once a week, paired working with an nt child who needs help to work on fine motor skills to improve communication etc. Acutally, I think my pushing has probably helped them identify other children in the small school (less than 150) who can do with more help.

I believe most teachers go into the profession for a reason and most of them want to improve and work with children. However, the reality is they have to cope with 30 children and unless parents are PITA, it is so easy just to leave sn children to ta, especially if they are not causing any trouble. I also believe that they do what the LA want them to, most of the time, but then so do the SALT, OT, Ed Psych.

All bar one of DS's teachers have been amazing. They accept him for who he is and have done their best to help. I don't get the impression at all that they don't like SN children. They appreciate their strengths and talents just the same as any other child. They have to - 25% of children have some sort of SN in DS's school which is pretty much average. You can't not take them into consideration if you don't want to fail as a school.

The one teacher who wasn't much good with him wasn't much good with NT either so I don't think it was to do with his SN.

Yes the teachers do make use of the TA but that isn't a bad thing. The TA's that DS works with have had special training to deal with him (the OT has trained them how to do his OT programme for example) - they are there to give specific one-to-one help. I don't see him as being fobbed off but getting extra attention(although TA's do support non-SN children).

OP I am sad that you have had a bad experience of MS teachers. I tend to think that if you go looking for trouble and that you expect your child to be perceived as trouble then that is the way you are going to be treated. Not knowing any better at the start of DS's schooling I didn't expect much and was grateful for everybody who understood, but I didn't assume that DS was a burden to the teachers and I didn't assume that they wouldn't help him. On the contrary, I thought they might find him a bit of a challenge, but in a good way, because he brought something different to the mix (even if that sounds a bit smug)! I do think the parent's attitude has a lot to do with it - I see all DS's teachers at the beginning of the year and talk to them about how he is and what has happened to date. On the whole they have been very receptive to my view point and want to know what they should read to learn more. That is not to deny that some people have a pretty crappy time of it with schools but I don't think that is necessarily the rule any more than it is for non-SN children.

Having had a meeting on Friday with the school nurse and the school to talk about DS's transfer to secondary, and another a few weeks before with the school and the OT about his programme for the next few months, I also don't agree they don't like outside professionals getting involved - they welcome it.

One of my son's mainstream teachers said at the end of her year with him how much she'd learned from having him in her class and I think, as a teacher, that that is true but without specialist training (that isn't automatically available) and support (that LAs don't want to pay for), the risk is that the child can become a guinea pig. That hasn't been my general experience, as my son tends to be given to the most experienced teachers now, but is a distinct possibility.

Niecie - your experience just doesn't match some people's I'm afraid and it is a little smug to suggest that problems with teachers are all about how the parent handles the situation. I consider myself diplomatic and a good and calm advocate (I worked as a lawyer for many years)and a supportive and encouraging parent but I have found things incredibly difficult at times.

The reality is that there are many good teachers, just as there are good doctors, laywers, politicians and hairdressers. But there are poor ones, lazy ones, ignorant ones and defensive ones too.

It is very unfair and unrealistic to use broadbrush strokes either wat

Parents have little control over what teacher their child has and who they have to deal with. All they can do is try and pick a school which seems to care and work with teachers within the limits of their obligations e.g. resources etc. Of course, statementing complicates everything, not least because it is so hugely complicated for schools and teachers by the pressure they receive from LAs not to apply.

But the fact is that, if your child is not difficult and does not create needs for the teacher, their own needs will not always be picked up in a large class. So, it is certainly not true that teachers in these circumstances always welcome outside agencies' involvement. For them, more involvement amy mean more work which may not welcomed when they have failed to identify an issue in the first place.

But this is largely the result of a system which is not fit for purpose and because of this I think a measured approach is needed when commenting on the teachers and parents.

I think you are right givemesleep - there is a danger of the children being a learning tool for the the teachers. DS had a couple of NQTs (including the one that was frankly a bit crap) and they needed to learn about his SN before they could put in place the help iyswim.

On the other hand, I think he might also have benefited from the fact that they don't have any preconcieved ideas about what SN children are like and so see him for what he is rather than a typical AS/dyspraxic child.

That said, you do need to keep an eye on them and be aware of the little things that without some years of teaching experience, won't stand out as being particularly odd or relating to SN.

'I tend to think that if you go looking for trouble and that you expect your child to be perceived as trouble then that is the way you are going to be treated.'

You might think this, but the experience of nearly everyone on this board is that they have gone in and still continue to go in hoping, believing, encouraging, willing for the teachers to do right by their children and even reprimading themselves for the smallest hint of criticism in a home-school book.

And so many are let down and hurt.

I think the reality is that parents need to get a balance. You have to show that you will fight and fight to get what your child needs, but you also have to remain likeable/ co-operative enough that they will work with you. I've often had to be very unlikeable when pushed into a corner, but never wanted to as I know that the best way to go for my son is to work with the school, not against them.

Teachers need to stop bullying and being nasty to children with Special needs

Stark - "You might think this, but the experience of nearly everyone on this board is that they have gone in and still continue to go in hoping, believing, encouraging, willing for the teachers to do right by their children and even reprimading themselves for the smallest hint of criticism in a home-school book"

Then they aren't looking for trouble are they? Put yourself back into the shoes of the teacher, as you did in an earlier post, and consider that you aren't going to do the best for somebody who comes to you expecting you to fail - your best is never going to be good enough.

givemesleep is absolutely right - you have to get a balance between being insistent and remembering that if they don't like you (and you don't like them) it isn't going to work out well for anybody.

Lucinda - you seem to have had had some horrible experiences. You should be reporting the teacher, to the head in the first instance and then the governors.

We did do that, but they did not investigate the incident effectively. The one thing they did do was fast tracked the Statement procedure. No one at the school had up to that point referred our DD to the SENCO.
I wanted to see the people involved in court, but it took too long. They divert and stonewall parents and just ignore the questions.

I agree a measured approach is the best as I've said before and as giveme indicates.

However, we have to be realistic too about the system we are working.

If your child is an over 'difficulty' in some way for school or teachers (e.g. behaviourally), than parents often feel very grateful for schools for accomodating them. This may (not always just may) make everyone more likely to work together to secure help as it is in everyone's best interests.

'Hidden' disabilities are much more difficult. Help maybe necessary for a child but the consequences of inaction seldom touch the teacher and this is the kind of situation in which parent and teacher may come into conflict.

Further, as a newly appointed governor with a poor personal experiences of the SEN pathway in my son's school, I can see that obligations are not always ignored, but they are seldom truly understood.

How many schools follow SEN COP regarding IEPs?

How many follow SEN COP relating to the pathway and parental inclusion?

How many schools understand the new Equality Act?

How many schools have published Disability Equality Schemes?

These are fundamenal statutory obligations/guidance and if they were implemented, there would be less parent/teacher conflict.

As it is, lack of knowledge, absence of training (wholeschool), lack of resources and, sometimes, inclination, create a poor starting point for a mutually supportive and collaborative approach

that shold read....system we are working with