Dont know whether to be happy or not

[Claw3]

Had a meeting with OT from specialist feeding clinic and SENCO earlier this week, about ds's extremely limited diet and ds barely eating in school. He currently eats a quarter of chocolate spread sandwich (leaves the yogurt and grapes, although he will eat these at home) with adult supervision, without supervision he eats nothing.

It was agreed that we would attempt to get ds to try a school dinner. The plan was 3 weeks of ds just looking at the dinners, but continuing with packed lunch. Then asking ds to choose just one thing from the menu, something like chips which he already eats at home.

This morning SENCO comes over to me in the playground and tells me for the last 2 days, ds has been eating pudding ie cake and commented "so much for just looking".

Ds has no problem eating cake and i purposely leave cake out of his lunch box, as this is ALL that he would eat, given the choice.

So for the last 2 days, he has been eating just cake in school.

There are really not getting the hang of this. I dont want to be negative as they are trying, how do i approach this without upsetting them?

How ridiculous, someimes people can be so clueless, I bet she was all full of herself and excited to wasn't she... I can't imagine why she would think that it would be better for him to eat cake than a sandwich. And the trouble is now he will expect cake everytime he goes in there, if he is anything like my girls twice is a routine!!
Have no advice for you sorry, but am guessing someones going to have to tell him he can't have cake everyday. I would make them tell him if I were you..

oh claw, what a pain!

I had this with dd1 at her (supposedly ASD specific) pre-school.

She was having huge issues eating there (mostly caused by them, in this case). and then one week I was told (instead fo the usual "well, yes, she is struggling with lunchtimes") "oh, she is doing so well - she doesn't like the main meal, but she does like her puddings, doesn't she? she always asks for more. today she had 3 bowlfuls"

they really thoguht that dd1 was going to shun the thought of as much pudding as she could eat (and she can eat and eat!) in favour of whatever manky offerings was the main meal that day... the mind boggles (she was 4. even without ASD and eating issues, how many 4 year olds are going to say "oh no, I think I ought to eat some vegetables now"?!)

It's enough to make you weep, isn't it?

head - desk.

I would let DS2 have the free school dinners, even though he would probably only eat the puddings, if it wasn't for the fact that the supposedly healthy puddings always comprise cake and custard.

He's not as severe as your DS, though, claw, and I've managed to get him into eating things like dairylea spread, soft cheese or even potted chicken spread thickly on some nice nutty bread. For a while, all i could get him to eat at school was hot cross buns and, occasionally, sausage rolls, so that's pretty good progress from him. Of cours,e he loves peanut butter and would eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner, but I don't want him to ever associate that with school, in case they end up with someone severely allergic in the school.

I'll tell you what DS2 does love that is sweet and very nutritious. Fruitus bars (Lyme Regis, as opposed to the Jordan's Frusli bars). They're dried fruit and oats and not much more - no added sugar, or anything. We've been using those to teach him to use a Big Mack or Go Talk button, since he'd eat them whole, if he could!

Would h undestand chips & then cake? Make the school use the pud as a reward IYKWIM.
But silly of them to change the plan and let your ds dictate.

Yes she was very happy and excited and it was said in such a way as 'we cant see what all the fuss is about, we did it without him even needing to look at the food, no problem'

At the start of term, he was eating nothing. I know why because his full time 1:1 was taken away pending his statement. I mentioned to SENCO again he had not been eating and OT. SENCO put him into the lunchtime club, adult supervised for SEN children and his eating improved a quarter of sandwich and he even managed a grape and on one occasion a mouthful of yogurt. Then had meeting with OT and SENCO and the school dinner plan was hatched!

Ds would happily eat sponge cake or sweets for every meal, whether at home, in school or on the bloody moon. I struggle to get him to eat anything that is NOT sweet.

Star, i have been making some good progress at home, he has been eating bob the builder (processed meat like spam with a face on it)literally the first time he has ever touched or eaten meat. He is also eating my home cooked chips made from potatoe, yogurt and grapes for desert, a fairly healthy diet.

The idea was to get him to try a dinnerish food, not a sweet.

I dont know whether to look at it as oh well at least he is eating something, lining up with a tray etc and let them see for themselves when they try to get him to eat anything else (and perhaps then they will see mum is not exaggerating!)?

or whether they are doing more harm than good and i should say something?

claw, I would approach with caution, tbh.

yes, on the one hand it is good he is eating something, and so willingly.

otoh, though, is the fact that a lot of eating issues are about control - and by doing this, the school are letting your ds set his own control parameters.

fine up to a point, but where does the line get drawn?

I would put a stop to this before it gets too entrenched.

you are not only trying to get him to eat something, but also to have a healthily varied diet (as far as limitations allow)

sounds like you have been doing brilliantly, btw - well done you! that's a few really good steps forward your ds has taken.

you say your ds was improving with the lunch club (well, a little -a s always, baby steps!)? well, then I'd want the school to be focussing on that, tbh.

he has started eating - and in a socially acceptable way (ie sandwich, then grape/yoghurt)

what is the point of putting plans in place, if the school are just going to ignore them?

prsumably the plan was explained to your ds? i bet he isn't feeling very happy (other than the superficial "yay! I can eat cake!") about the lpans being changed at the last minute - it may well have increased his anxiety about the thought of the proper meal - how does he know where he stands wrt looking/eating a meal now?

Anon, yes he understands that, at home i try to avoid using food as a reward given that ds is not food motivated and his food phobia. I use the wii ie if you eat your dinner (or at least take a bite of the new food) you have x amount of time of the wii or i bounce on the trampoline with him for x amount(oh joy!) He doesnt have cake for desert at home.

When they try eat your chips, then you can have pudding, he will just go without the pudding rather than eat something he doesnt want.

I suppose i should sit back and let them learn for themselves, its just so bloody frustrating though.

the problem, claw is that you want everything put in place to be something that can be built upon.

if your ds is never going to respond to "eat chips first, then cake", then it needs to be stopped now.

where do school think they are going to go with this?

what happens when they try to move your ds on, but he sits there holding out for cake, which has been freely given before?

every step taken now needs to be leading somewhere positive, not leading to a huge turn around when school arbitrarily decide your ds has eaten enough cake! ask them what their next step is (in whatever timescale - they should already know where they are aiming)

if they don't have one - well, there's your answer. make them stick to the plan that has been put in place.

this cannot be approached haphazardly - it won't do your ds any favours.

Thanks Silver, he has a sequencing chart in his lunchbox, telling him in which order to eat, prior to that he would eat in any order, so he is getting the hang of the order. Only to now be given sweet!

No, he hasnt been told of the plan. The idea was just looking at the food for 3 weeks (while still having a packed lunch), then for ds to be included with choosing one thing from the menu ie chips, working towards plain rice or spaghetti or anything else savory once a week. I hadnt given much thought to deserts, as i knew he wouldnt have a problem with eating cake (didnt even realise this was on the menu)

Must dash got to pick up ds for CAMHS appointment.

Claw it's Milady. We've spoken before and I remember your DS wrt food very well

I'm so pleased he has made so much progress!

This situation is tricky though and you have every right to be frustrated and concerned.

The problem sounds like they won't learn, though. If they're getting professional advice then just making it up as they go along and taking the path of least resistance (ie the one where he eats sweet stodge and they feel smug about it) then they are going to end up back at square one and it's your DS who suffers in the long run.

Like silverfrog, I think the lunch club sounds like it's been most positive for him.

I know you said that they were having no luck with the first chips, then sweet thing, but if he is to eat in the dinner hall, then I think they do need to make an arrangement where he can go and choose a savoury and a sweet, but not be allowed to take his sweet to the table until he's eaten an acceptable amount of the savoury - an amount which increases slowly over time. I think that's going to be the only way to recover from the unfettered access to pud he's had for the past few days, anyhow - gradually pushing the limits of his expectations.

Hi Milady, yes i remember well, your ds is very similar.

Ourvye, in fairness to the school neither myself or OT told the school NOT to start with a pudding, we spoke about starting with savoury things and the savoury things which might be less threatening to ds. But then i thought common sense would prevail and assumed they would attempt to get ds to try a savoury first. I could quite easily fill his lunch box up with cake and then claim oh he is now eating in school, what a success!

The problem with ds is that he will happily eat cake where ever he is. When the condition of eat something savoury first, then you can have cake is applied, it isnt enough to motivate him to eat and he would rather go without cake.

He tells me he doesnt even line up or hold a tray to get the cake, the teacher gets it for him . The whole thing is totally pointless.

You know what, eating cake for a couple of weeks isnt going to kill him. I will let them have their 'success', apparently they have a child who has much more 'severe' autism that ds and was exactly the same as ds, who now eats everything on the menu. They can then explain to OT in 2 weeks, how he is progressing.

When they ask ds to pick something savoury, he will refuse to choose, let alone put it anywhere near his mouth. Sometimes people need to see it to believe it. I need to pick my battles and in the grander scheme of things really, this isnt the end of the world.

Ds came out of school today and told me he had eaten mashed potato in school, he says he did not choose it and didnt want to eat it. By 'eaten' he means they persuaded him to lick it. He says he was upset.

The idea was for 3 weeks he just looks at the food, then he could choose something from the menu, not that school would choose it for him and force him to eat it.

When we discussed what food is less threatening for ds, i specifically stated that mashy food or food with sauces would be ds's worst nightmare, especially mash potato.

What the bloody hell are they playing at?. I wrote to SENCO yesterday after receiving a note in lieu asking them how they plan on meeting ds needs without a statement.

I feel they trying to prove a point ie mum says mash potato would be the most threatening food to ds, lets try and get him to eat it, am i being paranoid?

This is absolutly stupide... no you are not being paraniod, the staff need to learn to listen to you. Selective hearing seems to be a very common problem in schools doesn't it.

oh dear god, claw, what are they playing at?!

it was over eating issues that I finally lost the plot with dd1's supposedly expert ASD pre-school.

they just couldn't see that they were making the whole thing worse, and I took the view that dd1 has to eat for the rest of her life - if they had managed to screw it up completely for her, it would have been a disaster (what they were trying, dd1 saw as punishment. it was not meant in this way, but they refused ot see that she took it in this way. she eventually gave in, ate the whole plateful, silently, and immediately gestured to get up (no pudding ! totally shows she was upset; school said it was because she was full). anyway, she has not eaten potatoes since (which is what they were trying to get her to eat) - this is over a year ago now!

did you speak to the school after the last incident?

what did they say?

you need to stop them NOW, they are undoubtedly doing more harm than good.

if they cannot stick to the agreed plan, you need to get camhs to write to them.

your ds is doing so well with the plan you agreed with camhs - you've managed to get him to eat new foods, and he was doing ok at the lunch club.

you need to speak to the people involved and ask them why they forced your ds to do this. it is totally unacceptable. it is an abuse of trust - how is your ds ever meant to trust they will help him if they make him do things which distress him?

Ineed2, he tells me he was crying and refusing to eat and the lady told him he had to and she gave him a sticker after.

No doubt so that school can claim 'success'.

Makes me so SENCO, myself and OT from feeding clinic made a plan.

OT was very clear that for it to be a success, as myself and her had discovered, ds had to agree to try it. I was very specific that this should not be something that is just done to him. So school force him!

OT was very clear with her plan of just looking at the food for 3 weeks, then showing ds the menu for a week and asking him to choose something from it once a week. We were very clear that it should be a savoury thing and discussed which food ds would find less or more threating. School decide to start immediately, no menu, and let ds choose cake everyday for a week!

Today he is told no cake and that he is going to eat mash.

I have been trying to phone OT from feeding clinic, but all i can do is leave a message and it takes her about a week to get back to me.

Silver, seems strange that i wrote to SENCO yesterday asking how they plan to meet his needs. Then today mash, the very thing i said would be ds's worse nightmare and to avoid it.

Its like they are trying to prove a point. Mum said it would be his worse nightmare and he ate it in school, no problem.

I didnt say anything about the cake, as i thought not the end of the world, when they ask him to eat something else and he refuses, gets upset etc, they will see what im talking about. I wasnt expecting them to force him!

I will have to write a letter to confirm what has been going on. I am fully expecting them to say he was happy to try the mash and he has got things in a muddle, they are not going to admit to forcing him.

Although i will know that this isnt the case, if mash was involved, i have seen his reaction at home to mash, which is why i said avoid it!

Then OT will say "children often have different behaviours at home and at school"

Oh bless i have just asked ds "are you going to have school dinners tomorrow" he said "yes" (there is me thinking, it couldnt have been that bad and perhaps he is muddled if he still wants dinner at school)

I asked "what are you going to have" he replied "cake, i have to choose it"

I asked "what if they give you mash again" he says "i have to eat it". I asked "what will happen if you dont". He replied "they will tell me off and i will get a detention"

Oh, Claw. Your poor DS :(

They are just totally missing the point, aren't they? Way to increase the anxiety he experiences associated with mealtimes.

Claw I would ask him the questions again and film what he say's if you can the they can't lie. Just a suggestion, might not work but hey it's worth a try.

completely agree with keepingupwith - film your ds talking about it (maybe get one of your older ds' to film/talk to him about it, so that you are not seen to be influencing?) - all of it, the crying, the dinner lady saying he has to eat it, etc. they need ot see how your ds views the situation.

Claw, you know you have to document that, don't you? Write to them expressing your concern that you have had that conversation. Expressly withdraw your consent from your DS having detentions for any food-related incidents of any kind.

My DS has been having a chocolate croissant for lunch with juice and few mini biscuits. To be honest I dont make a big deal out of it neither does the teacher besides the healthy lunch policy the school has.

What I have done is get DS to help me make the sandwich and we put it together in the lunch box but put the croissant as a back up and unfortunately he has never eaten the sandwich nor the pasta...so I decided not to make a big deal out if it as he has a more or less healthy breakfast, eats when he gets home a balanced meal and then again has a healthy snack/dinner in the evening.

Perhaps involve him in making the Bob the Builder ham sandwich, and then put that together in the lunch box as well as the cake and explain to him as well as note to the teacher, first sandwich then cake?

This is so difficult he does get extremely confused. Also a lot of damage from previous school, who did punish him for not eating. (a lot of damage for me too, with being able to trust school)

Whether that is what they did or said or not, he thinks or feels this is what will happen. Perhaps i should base my letter on that?

Its a bit like letting them off the hook, if they have said or done what he says, but he does get extremely confused. That is the whole point of me applying for a statement, he gets very confused and anxious.

But if he does think or feel that way, i could ask them to reassure him. Go at it from that angle do you think, rather than guns blazing and ending up with egg on my face, pardon the pun.