asd and violence, support please

[MissTired]

my ds is 4, he will be 5 in november, hes always been violent since he was about 21 months old progressively getting worse as he is getting stronger with age, he hits me every day numerous times, we have camhs who are trying to help us with this but so far not any change. well yesterday he wa playing with a pretend sword and started hitting me with it so i took it off him, he then went and got a very big kitchen knife from the kitchen and came at me with it, the look in his eyes was not playful as it had been with the sword, i managed to get it off him before he hurt me, but then my dp asked him what he was doing with the knife - his language is not great but coming on pretty well but his undertanding is behind what he can say a bit, but he turned and said, i want to make mummy bleed and cut her up into lots of pieces.

im heartbroken by it all, ringing camhs this morning for advice but dunno what else to do, other than obviously trying to hide knives!

Don't take it personally, he doesn't hate you.
Don't be heartbroken, he needs you to see the way forward because he can't
Create a safe place in your house where you can put him to calm down.
Don't let him hit you numerous times, block him and hold him. Tell him no, and warn him he will be in his room if he doesn't stop right now.
If you have to put him in his room, pick him up from behind, so that his kicking feet can't get you. Be prepared for head turning and biting if he's that way inclined.
Keep your voice low and reasonable and firm.
Don't feel like a shit parent if you have to use your body weight to pin him down whilst he rages, but don't panic either.
You need to be aware of the fact that he may have no higher awareness of potential damage to himself or others and may hurt himself because he hits something too hard.
Mine was like that at the same age. It's a very tough phase to get through, and it will make you frightened for him and wonder what the future holds. You really won't know until you get there, so don't despair. One step at a time.
Access whatever support you can from anyone, for him and for the rest of you.

thanks, have phone camhs but had to leave a message, we try to restrain him like that already but he headbuts us and kicks still he is so heavy and a proper wriggler i cant carry him up the stairs like that its just not safe he gets loose. there isnt really anywhere safe to put him as whatever i do hen he is in this mood he just keeps coming back for more, lasts most of the day every day, if i put him in the garden he launches everything at the windows and headbangs on the floor, he has had a permanent lump 2 years now from headbanging on the front of his head. i know hes only 4 so i should be able to restrain him but hes o strong and hes huge for his age and frankly a proper wriggler and uses any bit of his body to attack me so short of locking him in a padded room theres not much i can do, ive tried holding him down with my body but its just not possible to hold all him down without him getting a limb free or his head and swinging it at me, even if i grab him from behind he bangs his head back against me with such force and same with his feet, i know i sound pathetic but he really is that strong!
today he has already bust my lip so when it stopped bleeding i now have a huge lump on it which is so painful and takes half of my bottom lip! ive had black eyes before, am always covered in bruises and numerous bust lips, cuts, bites, and lumps from his headbanging on me. he fractured my nose a couple of month ago too
im sorry i know i sound so self pitying im just at a point where every day it gets worse and i truely think its only a matter of time before he seriously hurt me and i dont know what to do anymore

I'm so sorry, it does sound really, really hard for you

I haven't got anything really to say to help I'm afraid, but just wanted to bump this so someone else might come along who can give you some useful advice.

Is there anywhere in the house you can take him (preferably not having to carry him up stairs) where you can at least leave him, a room with no breakables, maybe a door he can't open (or gate?)? Or have you got anything he can release energy/anger on without harming anyone - trampoline or anything?

You're not sounding self-pitying at all - it is really hard on you. I hope you get some support.

You need to be taught how to hold him in a way that he can't hurt you, obviously it would be better if you didn't have to but there are ways to hold children without hurting them or them you. Ask camhs to get someone to teach you, they should have someone who knows about restraint. Also I know this sounds daft but don't stand and take it. He is raging and not in control of himself. As goblinchild says block his hands if he is trying to hit you.
I feel for you, my eldest, kicked,hit and bit me, but we did get through it.

Firstly please don't feel like a bad parent.. Your not.. You are a good parent in a difficult situation, you've asked for help and you want to make things better.

They will get better.
You do need to be taught how to safely restrain your ds...
I would suggest that you get locks for your kitchen cupboards ( padlocks rather than baby saftey locks) and keep all sharps locked up.

I would also suggest a punch bag.. It can just be on the floor of his bedroom it doesn't have to hang...
The idea of this is when any rough play starts you then put him with his punch bag... That is the only thing he hits.
Use a really matter of fact calm voice and if he moves away from it before he has got it out of his system.. Just keep returning him.
Then lots of praise when he goes there and stays there... Goes by himself.. Or comes away calm

it takes lots and lots of will power to keep doing it.. And there will be hiccups. But it did work with ds2
the key is to guage the point of when he needs to go.. Before he is even getting anywhere near out of control... But not all the time or if he is playing nicely.. And that's a hard one.

If both dh and I are here if ds2 kicks off it's a lot easier as we double team him and guide him using a shoulder and an elbow each.
If I'm by myself it's harder, but I have become very aware of the signs and triggers well before he starts, I can usually then just suggest he gets it out of his system or he uses his safe space.

MissTired - Really sorry about that. Just wondering if it is just you he hits? My son 4.1 (ASD) is an angel at school and seems to take everything little thing out on me and his sister but not to anyone else. Worse now as out of routine.

PS Goblinchild. Thanks for the advice about restraining. I am on 3rd pair of glasses this year but advice re holding backwards should help.

Do you have a helmet for his headbanging?

thanks for everyones replies its nice to know i can rant! ive come out of today with a swollen lip, a lump on my forhead and a jaw that feels a little bruised, every day it gets worse.

camhs never phoned back, maybe they will ring back tomorrow i guess. paed not phoned back either

overthebar its mostly me he hits but not exclusively me if that makes sense, he is generally very violent but takes it that extra step with me

tommorowslookingfine no we dont, ive asked before but as he would be able to undo it they refused as said it ould be pointless, im going to try for one again but as we dont have an ot anymore or anyone who thinks we need one i guess its not likely we will get anywhere

really fancy wine but lip hurts so ill settle for juice through a straw lol

overthebar-- holding backwards is better but you must make sure your ds cant hit you with the back of his head, I have nearly lost my front teeth on numerous occasions.

know what you mean ineed2, thats now i got my swollen lip today and my teeth are still sore and he did it early this morning!! when i finally get hold of camhs ill ask again about restraint, she always said no before but maybe now she might

Tell CAMHS that you are worried for his safety, that you might be able to stop him hurting someone else, but the level of force might cause him harm if you apply it wrongly through ignorance.
Joints are especially vulnerable.
They might stop pussy-footing around and help.
Do you have a local special school who could advise you? That's where I did my training on restraint.

Although he is capable of undoing a helmet, do you think he would be able to tolerate it?

I say this because most of the children I know who wear them have the ability to unfasten them, but don't as the straps are left fairly loose so it doesn't bother them too much, and the helmet will still take the force out of the impact.

I think its worth getting hold of one, even if you have to buy it yourself.

Don't know if this has been posted already, but it is well worth joining The Challenging Behaviour Foundation www.thecbf.org.uk

thanks everyone, had a rotton few days, ds starts special school in september so hoping they will advise me on restraint when they have encountered his action!! camhs are coming next week so fingers crossed, knives hidden, thick skin regrown and were off out today to see my mum and maybe venture to the shops!!!

(((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))

big hugs hunny!!!

firstly i would restrict access to the kitchen, remove toys like the sword.

do you know what causes his rages? whats sparks them off?

when he is violent, does it just come from nowhere or build up? if it builds up, i would try distraction when he shows the 1st signs. a game, song, anything he likes doing.

i hate restraint, but i know it is needed at times and if you can get him to a safe place by using it, then i would. if camhs haven't come by tuesday, scream and shout til they do. demand they help you

I am in exactly the same situation ds is 4.2, amazingly strong and huge he has kicked me today so hard I think I have bruised my ribs it hurts so much I have had to take my bra off and take some pain killers. I am covered in bruises and scratches. I can not do the pick up from behind as he still kicks and head buts and will bite if he can get the chance. ds has almost no speech bar no, go away shoe and mama. I have just had my first meeting with camhs they are coming back on tuesday. Ds just hits out for no reason sometimes it is because he finds it funny or because I have said no, which one of the few words he understands.

Agree with the OP you need to shout for help from services and take whatever support you can access. If Social Services were providing what you do, it would cost them 1500 pounds a week plus. Bear that figure in mind when they refuse restraint training, respite etc.

At the risk of sounding like a daily mail mum, my ds' violence reduced when we threw away all swords, banned most tv shows etc. I'm currently trying to get rid of dinosaurs as he pretends to be a v. realistic T Rex much too often. (and if the senco sees the role play she'll be even less likely to support him getting diagnosed ).

If you keep seeing your GP or practice nurse with the injuries, would the GP end up writing a letter for you? Maybe CAMHS see knife wielding 4 yo all the time and have got a bit blasé but I'm willing to bet the practice hasn't!

Photographic evidence of bruising, damage etc can be very powerful. If you have a friend/family member who can video some of his worst behaviour (phonecam or something quick) that can also help them understand the struggles you're having.

Because restraint can feel like searing pain to many of us, if there's any opportunity at all, I'd keep a big duvet in each room he's in, and use that duvet to contain him and wrap him tight in it if possible. It's softer for us and allows us to settle rather than continue to fight the pain/overload. But ultimately, his and your basic safety come before his sensory needs.

This definitely needs a specialist team to look at his situation and work out how this is going to be handled. Make a huge noise about it and really really stress that he is in danger and so are you.

I had a fighter/kicker/runner/escape-artist, and spent several years having to do stuff like this. It's not fun. Especially when you're autistic yourself and the pain of being kicked or headbutted hurts worse than I can rightly say.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think a 4 year old boy (autistic or not) who learns that violence is ok, is heading down the wrong path. I think such behaviour needs to be immediately punished in a way that he knows he has done wrong and hesitates before doing it again. I do not mean hitting, as I would never EVER hit a child, but I do mean something aversive which will show , not tell, him that it is totally unacceptable to come at his mum with his fists, feet, teeth, or a knife! I used hairwash when my DS was small, as he did not like it at all, and he is no longer aggressive. It is a good job I started early, as he is now too big for me to control. CAMHS etc will not tell you about punishment, because somehow that has become a dirty word in our mixed-up society, but I believe small children need to have firm boundaries laid down to change their behaviour while it is still able to be changed. After 7, habits are fixed. FWIW, I think restraint techniques are simply sidestepping the issue, as they may be fine and dandy in school, but what about when the child is 25 years old and CAMHS and school are distant memories? I await flaming, but I think the crueller thing than hairwash is to let a child grow up aggressive, as this is the one thing that is going to limit their chances in life (esp. at school). Later in life, it may provide a real danger to them. Please act now - if a nf child was hitting you, you wouldn't hesitate to impose sanctions. It is slightly more difficult when the child is largely non-verbal, but the principle should be the same imho.

sick....
go to aibu and comment on the aspergers thread please!!!

sick... DS has no understanding, I have tried on many occasions to punish him but it just makes him do it more and more. DS has asd sld and adhd he has no verbal understanding. Doing something he doesn't like, like hair washing would make him more violent, not that he woulld understand why I was doing it.

And this, sickofsocalledexperts and mammadooooo, is why this whole 'autism is autism is autism' attitude is stupid and dangerous.

I can use consequences etc. with J (though I wouldn't use stuff like hairwashes, cos what if he went 2 weeks without needing one as a consequence? I would then need to wash his hair at some point and he'd see that as a punishment!) but J doesn't have SLD and it is a very very different ballgame.

Just because something works for you doesn't mean it works for someone else.

MissTired CAMHS did have some very useful advice for me when J was like this. His ADHD meds did help too as he was calmer and could think things through. It's now weekly violence rather than multiple times throughout the day. Yay. And for shorter periods too.

Also, do you have a SW? Because ours referred us to have the house 'made safe(r)' with locks and stuff to keep dangerous stuff out of the way. Hope CAMHS come back with something good. And just remember, they don't really mean it. J constantly tells me of his violent fantasies for my death but it's just the frustration talking.

Mamadoo.

It does get better. You'll get better at reading the signs. My ds is 11.

(most of) the advice here is really good. I wish I'd joined mumsnet sooner. I'm afraid we resorted to medication (0.5ml respiridol). Ds is calmer and happier...and we're no longer covered in bitemarks, scratches and bruises (we - including teachers, carers and long-suffering older dd). Looking to cut it slowly down now.

The duvet/blanket thing works for us, also beanbags and cushions. Good luck!

I think that, for the op, trying behavioural tecniques when her boy is still only 4, is worth a shot. I do not think the same things work 4 all, but it is surely worth her trying techniques other than just "lock up the knives"? And my boy is by no means hf, he sounds similar to both the op's and jjones' boy. Just trying to help.