well were definately going to be going to tribunal in january!!!

[MissTired]

we had a meeting yesterday with the lea who still refuse to quantify, specify or generally make the statement worth anything!! im not sure what i have to do now as got to send the form back to tribunal by tuesday where they say i have to write what i want to be put in, removed and amended etc. can anyone give me any hints for this? parent partnership are ringing me back tomorrow, ipsea i cant get through to, same with sossen! so do i write why i want these changes as in x hours salt as this is recommended in appendix x and xxxxx says he needs ..... etc etc or do i just write what i want him to have written in statement? also where it says things like "access to an additional adult where necessary" and "support, when required, with motor skills" what do i change it to?? i think he needs support with fine motor skills all the time but how can i quantify that when i dont know how many hours they will be drawing or whatever in?? and this whole access to isnt right is it as its open to interpretation etc and is far from one to one, but he is going to a sn school with a good staff to pupil ratio so sometimes he will be ok but others i think he needs one to one like when hes outside etc (challenging behaviours, violent to peers etc) but local authority and new school (who have met him 3 times before he starts in sept!) say its not good having one to one as he has no space to be himself!!! but himself as the reports from current mainstream preschool show, is battering the other kids even with one to one! (hes quick!!)

so what do i do??? how do i not get stressed about all this tribunal stuff its driving me insane!! sn school hes going to have no problem with statement being very vague and say it can be changed if needed in the future, i thought its better to have it right now and then if he no longer needs salt, ot one to one or whatever it can get taken out when he doesnt need it!! am i wrong and asking too much?? in my opinion statement is ultra vague and pretty useless now but local authority say they are all like that and school say all kids there dont have quantified statements as its not necessary!?

MissTired, I can answer you from two perspectives, but they will conflict.

Legally, you are absolutely right that the SEN COP says that statements should be specified and quantified. Note the 'should', because it is legally very different from must.

So you can go to tribunal secure in the knowledge that the SEN COP is on your side.

However, I am also in the situation that my DD is going to SN school in September. Her statement isn't quantified and the specification is all quite 'loose'. But I am assured by the school that despite her being in a class of 10 with 4 staff, she will get lots of 1:1 time and they will adjust as needed.

I think that is right. For example, DD1 has no sense of danger. She will stand up half-way down a slide (and she is ataxic, so it isn't good!!). I am sure that they will very quickly realise that she will need total and constant supervision at all times on the play equipment. However, there may be children in the class that can cope with the play time, but need 1:1 for toileting.

I do know what you mean WRT the 1:1. DD1's preschool are really struggling even with 1:1. But the SN school is just so much more appropriate in so many ways (for example, the ajoining bathroom has a barrel bolt high up on the door, so she won't be able to just wander off and play with the taps).

I am sure someone will be along soon with better advice than I can offer - but I think it is important to have as much as possible quantified whatever the setting.

There was a thread quite recently started by a SALT who was concerned the hours they could provide in a unit were being heavily cut. If that were to happen your only protection would be the quantified hours in the statement - if it was vague you would not have any comeback.

Oh, sorry I cross-posted - got sidetracked in the middle and Lougle is far more help than me!!

Only you can quantify this.

Think about all the activities at school e.g. reading, writing, etce etc and also lunckbreaks etc and decide what level of help he requires.

Also - very important - say that you reserve the right to produce further evidence should it become available nearer to the SENDIST date.

You don't want to ask for too much / too little this far away from SENDIST.

I'm in exactly the same situation at the moment, torn between sn school saying vague statement is fine they get round it, and having a statement that is specified, but not quantified properly.

The biggest issue I had was SALT, DD2 has in her statement DD2 will receive SLT twice weekly for 'up to' 25 mins. The 'up to' is my problem. I spoke to the SLT and she said she can get round this by writing an IPA which is legally binding and needs to be approved by the LA and she will write 'for' 25 minutes. Apparently physio and OT will also write one, therefore getting round the vague wording in the statement. I still need clarification on this from LA as if this IPA is legally binding and approved by LA why not put it in the statement, also which one takes precedence but if this is the case could this be a way round for you too, therefore avoiding tribunal?

I'm really not knowledgable with all this, I'm way out of my depth and very new to it all, but thought it might be an option.

thanks everyone, the problem were having is la say he doesnt need salt in the statement at all and his current salt will no longer see him once he starts sn school and their one will take over and apparently observe ds and give any support necessary, ot is the same only the school dont even have an ot and were waiting referral for an nhs one now but got an independant ot assessment in september it. his statement currently has no one to one, no salt, no ot and all other stuff vague too, so if ds struggles and is not supported as necessary then im stuck with no come back so to speak, i dunno its so hard isnt it!

mumgoingcrazy - have you appealed to sendist or is statement really newly done? ours was finalised in april but still in dispute with la hence starting appeal process just in case they wont agree, which it seems they wont!? make sure you dont miss deadline to appeal if things are still not checked out with this ipa by then!

thanks wetaugust i hadnt thought of that, do i just write what i think for now hours wise and then just say the i reserve my right to ...... after that??

My experience is that the battles just go on and on with the school itself as to whether the child is actually getting what you though everyone had once agreed they needed.

It is then crystal clear that all you can fall back on is the statement and if it is not in there nobody will give it to you and the school can't be held accountable. I would definitely urge going on and on to get as much detail in there.

You said it yourself - if it isn't in there then there is no comeback and you will be told that well, you were happy enough to agree he didn't need it.........

MissTired that does change things slightly. I had presumed that you had SALT & OT in parts 2&3, but that they weren't 'pinned down'.

DD1 has statements that are a little wooly, but the essence of them can't be denied. For example:

"DD1 will need structured programmes that will develop her speech and language skills through programmes and targets worked on in the classroom, supervised by school staff throughout the whole of the school curriculum during the whole of the school day. Regular assessment, advice and monitoring will be provided by a SALT..."

OT:

"An individual programme to develop gross and fine motor skills"

So if she was going to mainstream, I would have been very concerned about the detail. Having met with the school she will attend, I am happy with what is written.

having stress with ds tonight so cant reply fully but it is a little like yours lougle but more vague, will come back soon and type in what we have and see what you think, it kind of says salt programmes but not that they will be devised by a salt it implies school will devise them i think though its all confused in my head now and ds running riot ill be back later!! thanks

Hi misstired, our final statement arrived last week, so very new! DD2 will be in a sn school for 1 more yr before going (hopfully) to a sn unit attached to a ms school. Whilst in the sn school I know she will get 1 hr of physio/week. OT was specified and quantified properly in her statement and as I said before the SLT provision is too vague. My issue really is what happens in Sept 11 when DD2 moves schools, I need a proper statement for then. Do I do the appeals/tribunals now knowing DD2 wil be ok for the next year.

I'm in the process of talking to as many people as poss about all possibilities, but the problem I have is I really don't know who to trust. I've got SLT saying don't worry we'll get round this, sn school saying not a problem, they actually think I have a good statement, sossen wanting me to take the LA to the cleaners. Very confused at the moment.

Blimey, sorry I've just read my last post and it's a blatant hijack, also very indulgent in self pity.

Ignore it please!

MissTired

Start by looking at Part 2 of his Statement. Are all his difficulties identified?

If so, identify each separtae probalem.
Then ask yourself

a
) what does he need to help him overcome this difficulty

B) how will help him do it

C) for how long will that help be required.

Then apply it to all the different lessons / free time throughut the school day.

Then you will start to bild up a quantified assessment of the support he requires

sorry b) should be who

Too much vino

thanks everyone, and mumgoingcrazy dont worry post away as im sure it all probably is same issues so not a hijack really

so, here are some bits fro ds's statement as it is now, i dont know if part 2 is ok or not as not sure how specific it should be!??! the whole salt section says:

2.2 Communication

Benjamin?s receptive language appears to be more developed than his expressive language. He can understand sentences containing three information-carrying words, eg ?Put the book under the chair?. Benjamin enjoys communicating and interacting with adults. Benjamin?s communication is primarily about communicating his needs, but he can also interact in a simple dialogue with an adult. Benjamin is able to construct simple sentences using the Pictorial Exchange Communication System (PECS), using symbols which he places on a Velcro strip and then reads. Benjamin has also been observed using communication that was entirely oral with no use of PECS. He currently uses a mixture of symbol exchanges, simple sentences and learnt phrases to communicate. It is reported that Benjamin?s oral language has improved significantly since December 2008. He can now construct 4 word utterances and use a range of vocabulary. Benjamin has been observed directing his communication to a peer but he is often unsuccessful at making himself understood.

Benjamin has difficulties in the following areas:

? expressive language, for instance:

• his speech is disordered and the meaning can sometimes be hard to decipher;
• his words and sentences can be basic with limited vocabulary;

? receptive language, for instance: - he does not always understand the language used around him, particularly if upset; - he does not retain understanding of prior instructions which impacts on establishing routines; and ? social communication:

• he sometimes cannot make himself understood;
• he is poor at sharing spontaneously with others;
• he may say hello but is unable to develop the interaction further.

does this sound too vague??? then the relevant bit in part 3 relating to communication says:
under objectives bit:
3(i).2 Communication

? develop his expressive language skills; and
? develop his receptive language skills
? develop his social communication skills so that he is better able to make himself understood.

under provision bit:

3(ii).2 Communication

? strategies to develop his expressive language skills, including:

• use of Pictorial Exchange Communication System to augment oral communication especially when Benjamin is unable to make himself understood;
• an adult in a key worker role who has the opportunity to become attuned to his spoken language and who can help Benjamin make himself understood;
• to continue to learn new vocabulary and concepts and generalise this learning to several different settings;
• an adult to model language with Benjamin; simple, meaningful and relevant to the task in hand;
• within a variety of settings eg one to one, small group and in whole class situations;

? strategies to develop his receptive language skills, including:

• instructions that are short and simple and which do not assume prior knowledge;
• visual support for spoken instructions e.g. signs/symbols/objects; and

? strategies to develop his social communication skills including:

• to learn language needed in social situations eg ?too loud? ,or ?too scary? rather than using a behaviour.

Support from the Speech and Language Therapy Service in the form of:
? strategies/advice and if appropriate a communication programme, provided by a speech and language therapist and in liaison with education staff and Benjamin?s parents;
? the programme should be implemented by those involved with Benjamin on a daily basis to ensure that strategies or targets are embedded in the curriculum and practised during social opportunities in the school day;
? the programme /advice should be updated as frequently as required;
? if required the speech and language therapist working with Benjamin will be able to provide training , in collaboration with colleagues in education , around communication difficulties relating to Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD), the use of visual support and strategies relating specifically to Benjamin?s needs.

Benjamin?s needs will vary over time and consequently the speech and language therapy support will be amended accordingly to reflect his changing needs and the provision required in consultation with parents and school staff.

so what do you think?? ds has good speech but doesnt understand an awful lot of what se says, often doesnt make sense, has been sseeing a salt once per term at the moment. but sn school say if he needs one they will get him seen, all i have asked for is it to be changed for a minimum amount put in at the moment but now im wondering if im being too stingy and should ask for more i dont know

sorry thats really long, hope someone gets time to have a look for me but understand if they dont!!

ds has autism and a main issue is his sensory processing difficulties, though he is also behind in gross and fine motor skills, he is 4.7 now and cannot do more than draw an x or a circle, he can not rin as coordinated as his peers etc and has been also diagnosed with dcd (developmental coordination delays - essentially dyspraxia apparently!) in addition to his autism. the bit that covers all that on his statement is even more vague, well i think it is anyway!! will copy that into here now just incase anyone has time to read it and point me in right direction at all

section 2 of Physical sensory and medical section:
2.4 Physical, Sensory and Medical

Benjamin is reported to be in good health .The Educational Psychologist reports having seen no obvious limitations to Benjamin?s fine or gross motor skills during her observation. Ms "misstired" has ongoing concerns in relation to the rae of progress in benjamin's fine and gross motor skills in comparison to his peers. Ongoing comparison with peers and monitoring of his fine and gross motor skills to check if they are age appropriate would eb useful. At the time of this statutory assessment it is reported through the portage development profiles that benjamin's developmental age is 3.6yrs for physical (motor) skills compared with a cronological age of 4yrs 2 months. School report that Benjamin will only engage in activities requiring fine motor skills when assisted by an adult. Benjamin is fully physically mobile. It is reported that Benjamin enjoys physical play. There are no concerns about his hearing or vision. Benjamin has been prescribed Melatonin to help with his sleep pattern.

Benjamin has difficulties in the following areas:

? sensory difficulties, for instance:

• auditory sensitivity, Benjamin has a hyper-sensitive auditory system; he cannot cope with loud or sudden noises, he will attempt to block out such sources of stimulation by covering his ears or even removing himself from the source;
• Benjamin has a hypo-responsive vestibular and proprioceptive system; he self-regulates his vestibular and proprioception needs (using movement stimulation when over aroused), Benjamin may head butt the floor, he finds it hard to sit still; this has implications for his health and safety and also on his peers.

? gross motor skills and co-ordination; and ? fine motor skills and co-ordination.

and the objectives bit in relation to this says:

3(i).4 Physical, Sensory and Medical

? manage and cope with his sensory sensitivities.
? improve his gross and fine motor skills and co-ordination.

and the provision bit says:

3(ii).4 Physical, Sensory and Medical

? strategies to help Benjamin to cope with sensory sensitivities, including:

• a programme of activities to help Benjamin to self-regulate his vestibular and proprioception needs ,
• adults to be aware of and take account of his sensory sensitivities;
• access to physical activities.

? activities to develop his gross and fine motor skills, including:

• adult support, as required, during PE lessons to support his motor plannig difficulties
• frequent opportunities to use large gross motor movements in the classroom, in between periods of sitting to support his ability to refocus on more sedentary tasks.

so thats it, the other sections are equally vague with phrases like "familiar adults" "access to". it was worse than this and i have got them to change a few bits but thats all they would do, am i being paranoyed does it sound ok really?? or am i right that it is too vague and school in theory (though i hope they wouldnt) could get away with giving him nothing in the way of salt and ot!? am i asking for too much??

As you know I'm very new to all this and I'm sure someone with more experience will be more help, but from what you've written no therapy has been specified or quantified ie:

SLT - All the goals they have set are all very well, but shouldn't it say how often your DS will get SLT and for how long? It doesn't say how your DS will achieve these. eg DD2's statement says "DD2 will receive twice weekly SLT delivered directly by a SLT for the duration of up to 25 minutes". To me this is too vague as well as it states 'up to' 25 mins, therefore will appeal over this wording.

Physical/Sensory - Same again really, good goals but what therapy is in place to ensure your DS reaches these goals? Again DD2's statement for sensory says "DD2 will receive 15 sessions of OT/year. This will be delivered in half termly blocks for 45 minutes by an OT". Physio - DD2 will receive weekly physiotherapy delivered by a physiotherapist. The OT part is ok I think, Physio doesn't specify for how long she will get physio for, it could be 2 minutes/week.

As I said I really am very new to this, but it does seem that your statement is a bit vague. You're not Surrey CC by any chance are you? They are notoriously bad apparently.

I would say that reads quite similarly to DD1's in terms of both the needs outlined and the provision.

As I say, I personally think it is OK for a good special school. But legally, the SEN COP does say that statements should be specified and quantified.

However, when it comes to SALT, I had to ask myself what would be beneficial to DD. A SALT can deliver specific therapy, and should if necessary, but the general day-to-day 'getting on with it' doesn't need to be done by a SALT. And I am happy that the statement provides for that. But then I am very happy with the school.

hi mumgoingcrazy no im not in surrey but our county has a reputation too and never quantifies or specifies really either!! were in nottinghamshire where they only statement to special schools on the whole as have a major inclusion policy which is mostly useless!

thanks lougle, i dont know what i think ill have to sleep on it a bit more i guess, they do seem nice at the school but im not 100% sure about them so kind of worry about it all, for example their idea of transition period is visiting ds at his current preschool once, at home once, and him once visiting their school but only meeting the teacher and playing not seeing classroom etc!?!? its bits like that which stress me!! plus they dont have an ot linked to the school but say not to worry the salt knows a bit about sensory stuff! just makes me feel a bit but maybe its also a bit of a pfb thing too!?

I know what you mean. DD1's new school haven't even done the home visit yet - they wait until September! She has only been to the school once in January when we were looking around to see if we liked what the LA were suggesting!!

just to updat have sent the information thy asked for ie what i want putting in the statement and all that so hoping the lea come back and actually offer soemthing or we will be hoping on getting more evidence by tribunal! im sure it shouldnt be such a battle, im worn out with it all!