Explosive temper

[Tiggles]

I hope that I don't offend anybody by posting this here, and I have thought long and hard about it after the thread about parents moaning about NT children, as this post concerns DS2 who could quite possibly be NT, I don't know!

DS2 is 3.9. He has always had a massive temper - as a tiny baby if something upset him he would be purple in the face screaming about it eg. when I tried to change his nappy. When he was 18months old I think he would have failed a CHAT test, but he never had one as the HV who was meant to give him his 18month check thought we had moved. So he didn't have any language, never pointed, never watched if I pointed, no pretend play etc. This was about the time that the paed was deciding that DS1 had school related anxiety rather than Aspergers because he could recognise a happy smiley. So I wasn't overly going to push things knowing that we were hoping to move at some point.
When we moved the new HV decided that DS2 needed speech therapy - he was now 2 and still didn't say anything. Then before she got around to referring him (she was waiting for his past notes) he started saying the odd word so she decided not to after all.

Anyhow, move on to now nearly 2 years later. DS talks fine (odd errors with he/she etc but I guess that is age appropriate). But he still has the most horrendous temper and is getting very violent with his brothers. Yesterday he had got off a seat and his little brother (nearly 2) had sat on it a few minutes later. DS2 turned around saw DS3 on it, rushed at him, and started throwing metal cars at his head. I had to physically restrain him for about 30mins as every time I let go he picked up a new car to throw at DS3. During the time I was trying to hold DS2's arms he was biting me, kicking etc. I am constantly getting covered in massive bruises where I am trying to protect DS3.

DS2 does have lots of the more, for want of a better word, peripheral symptoms of Aspergers - eg he throws a major tantrum if the wind ruffles his hair, if we go home a different route, if someone moves his things, loud noises hands go straight to his ears etc. BUT his nursery report says that he makes appropriate eye contact and he is very popular - we turn up in the morning and all the other kids in his class (small school so only 7 of them) are getting excited "DS2 is here". He also happily pushes trains around his track - DS1 would only build tracks (having to use every piece) but would not actually use them. He does line up his cars if he just has them out in the room, but equally if I make a road he will push his cars around it.
Some of his behaviour I can see copied from DS1 - DS1 tends to flap around saying silly words when the others wind him up. DS2 looks exactly like DS1 but he is saying the same made up words that DS1 does, so I guess he is copying.
However, his temper isn't copied. Yes DS1 throws amazing tantrums - he got upset in a shop yesterday as we went to buy him a magazine, on the way it started raining, so he got upset that his magazine would get wet but equally wouldn't wait to buy it another time. He ended up knocking over a display of Pimms fortunately empty boxes! But DS1 doesn't tend to be as violent towards other people as DS2 is, his tantrums are different.

Sorry, this is getting long. I am working on the assumption, as he makes eye contact, that DS2 must be NT, but I REALLY need help with his behaviour. It is getting to the point I am scared to walk out the room without taking DS3 with me. During writing this I have had to stop 3 times to pick up DS3 after DS2 has pushed him over for touching his train track.
I can't find a punishment that works - I have put him in his bedroom and held the door shut until he calms down - but that has resulted in him kicking the door off the hinges - we are living in a rented house so I can't really be having that!
I am trying a sticker chart but although he is happy about getting stickers and putting them on the chart, he is quite happy to not get a sticker if he is being naughty - he will shout out "I don't want a sticker" as he throws something at DS3". DH has tried smacking him, he just laughs.

Please can someone help ? Does he sound NT, or does it sound like something isn't quite right?

It could be NT temper tantrums but at the same time some children with AS do make eye contact so not much help I'm afraid.

Perhaps the first thing to do is try to start managing his behaviour with praise rather than punishment. Start looking for tiny little things that he does which you can heap praise on him for. Do it constantly and when his behaviour is not what you want give it as little attention as possible.

You could also try keeping a diary. This could provide you with evidence for professionals if you decide you need to take this further, it could help you to identify triggers for his behaviour or it might help you to find ways to manage his behaviour better. Whatever happens it could be a useful tool.

You can have AS traits without them having a major detrimental effect on your life so some of the behaviours may relate to AS without actually being bad enough for a diagnosis IYSWIM.

Know very little about this, so only really bumping for you, but one thing I have learnt is that eye contact is no sure sign of not being on the spectrum.

Otoh violent temper tantrums are no sure sign of being on the spectrum either; it can just be a sign of a violent temper

fwiw I was never able to leave dd alone with baby brother at that age, though she is not on the spectrum: I had to either take her with me to the loo, or bar ds' door so she couldn't get at him

but it may be worth having your ds looked into

I suggest you have a chat with your HV if helpful.

btw I never punished for temper tantrums, just restrained the child without engaging until it was over

The most important thing is that you are concerned and if you are worried ask for a referral from your GP to a Paed. Sounds like you are having a hard time.

Im not saying your ds is or isnt NT, but eye contact is just one of the traits and by no means a basis to diagnosis or not.

Have you tried telling him/showing him what you would like him to when he feels like lashing out?

Just wanted to add that being able to recognise a happy smiley isn't a reason to discount AS either. There is a lot more to reading facial expression than that so if you have concerns about DS1 you should probably ask for him to be assessed too.

Eye contacta dn ability to recognise smily does indeed in now way relate to a DX: theya re perhaps at best indicators and no more. My quite amrkedly ASD ds3 can make eye contact (at times) and adores smileys, and ds1 recognsies both, yet theya re clearly on the spectrum.

OTOH issues with langauge delay, absent pointing and problems with emoptional control (rtemper) would IMO suggest an assessment is warranted. The silly words also sound familiar- here we have piggggeeee, snip-snip birds, guinea squasking... arggh

It's not a guarantee he does ahve ASD mind, but may be worth a chat with a PAed (don't let a GP fob you off they know very little usually about ASD).

Google the triad of impairments, put aside rpe conceived notions about what makes ASD and see if your child's behaviours could perhaps fit that.

My ds(ASD) can and does make eye contact, and can recognise happy smilies, and other facial expressions. Not all kids on the spectrum will show all the symptoms.

I think some assessment is warranted, sorry to say.

SanctiMoanyArse is right to point you to a Paed. Ask for a referal to the Community Paed.

Meanwhile stick around here for support, advice and info. Sounds like you are doing a good job in trying times.

I think the question is not so much whether your DS2 is or isn't on the spectrum, but whether or not you and he need help. It sounds a little as though various health professionals have ducked out of really giving your DS2 a thorough assessment.

Cynically, I would say this is because with limited time and money they are reluctant to divert resources towards a child who isn't causing problems for anybody else (e.g. his teacher) and might not be their responsibility.

However, getting help shouldn't be about getting or not getting this or that label. It should be about ensuring that any necessary support is in place to help your son reach his full potential.

Thanks all
I probably should add (wrote about in separate post hence not mentioned here) that DS1 was diagnosed with a 'school related anxiety producing Asperger type symptoms' by the paed and CAMHS who had referred him for Autism testing pulled the referral. As we were moving areas and hence new school (the old one had been useless) the paed said that if he still had anxiety to recontact CAMHS after 6months. So I have done so, we have been seen by CAMHS (anxiety team) and they think DS1 DOES have aspergers, so he is awaiting a proper assessment.

Huh? School based anxiety producing AS like symptoms?

new one on me!

ASD is a DX that changes between situations, so a child who is well behaved in one palce acan reallys truggle in another- its soemtimes used as a barr to help though.

CAMHs are worth seeing but a 3.9 year old should be seen by a community paed and assessed that way, that assessment should be comprehensive and include screening for genetic disorders as well as formal assessment.

CAMHs alone, IME, will not cut it.

School based anxiety producing AS like symptoms?
I think she was being hopeful .

Looking back she never really asked about DSs past (unlike his recent assessment up here) and focussed on the fact that he was having problems in school. However the school refused point blank to acknowledge there was any issue.
For example in December (After he started in the sept) I asked if DS was doing ok. He had been throwing major tantrums going in and out of school, kicking, biting etc, so much so that the TA used to carry DS2 to the car for me so I could drag/carry DS1. I had been asking on maybe a weekly basis.
Suddenly in December they changed from "Yes he is absolutely fine" to "Oh, he has hidden under a table most of this term. If we get him out and try and get him to work he throws a tantrum so we just ignore him. When he has to sit on the carpet with the other children he sits with his back to them about 2m away, but he is fine, if it continues we will let you know. The only issue could be his handwriting as he can't hold a pen firm enough to write anything down and make a mark on the page."
Right...
So I spoke to the HV she thought it sounded like Aspergers after listening to his past - lack of playing, lack of eye contact, routine etc etc and referred him to the paed.
Paed arranged as an emergency to see him in school in the January straight after the hols. School kept putting her off. Eventually she got in in March.
Teacher said to me after paed had been in "well he was fine when paed was here, don't know why you are worrying. If she had only seen him the week before she would have seen much more worrying behaviour"
Paed's interpretation "Arghhhhh, he is really suffering in school, lots of problems there, very abnormal behaviour."

By the time I got to parents evening a few weeks later his teacher basically said "Your child is stupid and is never going to succeed. Spends far to much time hidden behind the blackboard/under a table. If he doesn't stop talking about history and become interested in normal things like power rangers he will never make any friends." All the work he had done had such negative comments on about his writing I began to see why DS thought he couldn't do anthing. I had sent him into school able to count into the hundreds. A few weeks in he came home "I can't count to 9, look..."then counts in random fashion, took weeks to reteach him to count . Found piece of work where they had asked him to draw 9 bees and then a tiny picture of fiddly bee - stripes, wings etc. By the time DS had finished the page looked like lots of random lines. Written on the bottom "DS can not count to 9".
Wrote very rude letter to the head who basically said DS is stupid get out your head he is clever. we aren't going to put anything in place that he can give verbal answers he has to learn to write like everybody else.
So a year later as things got worse and worse, DS got to the point when they had a supply teacher for a week he was lying on the sofa when he came home from school, just moaning hadn't eaten for the whole week. I went back in to school and said "In future if there is a change in teacher can you let me know in advance" "Oh yes"
next day - teacher out on a course and hadn't even said anything in the meeting the day before .
At this point, paed says def a school problem not Aspergers.
I pulled DS from school to home ed him (knowing we were going to move areas and put him back in a school that hopefully understood him). School said "Oh we can give him a laptop so he doesn't have to write" I told them where to go .

How on earth would you complete a validated test such as ADOS or DISCO without a history? Oh yes that's right- you can't.

As for the your child is stupid- yep we had that too. No, your teaching is just inadequate.