Is it normal for a SENCO...

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To not know when an EHCP needs assessment should legally be undertaken?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the only two tests that 1) A child has or may have an SEN and 2) That they may need provision from an EHCP?

Not four criteria, which includes that the child is below expected academically for their year group? Where is she quoting this stuff from?

I am aware that my DD8 is 'high-functioning' and masks a great deal at school and therefore it took a lot of pushing from myself for them to even refer her for a diagnosis... And even then I felt massively gaslit and that they were just doing it to humour me.

However the SENCO does seem reasonably well-informed (ensures a lot of SEN-friendly measures are put in place on a whole-school basis), is responsive and happy to placate... Which is why I am completely shocked with her response to my suggesting I was considering a parental EHCP assessment application.

I was fully expecting discouragement, yes, but not factually incorrect information.

What do I do now? Do I become that parent who quotes legislation back at her?!

This is not uncommon unfortunately. Many schools repeat the LA’s unlawful policies. Inform the SENCO the legal test is set out in section 36(8) of the Children and Families Act 2014 and request an EHCNA yourself. You don’t need the SENCO’s support for that.

@EndlessLight Thank you 🙂 In a way it's a blessing in disguise that the school has been, not completely unhelpful, but not exactly proactive as it means I have done (some of) my own research and had good advice from posters like yourself.

A friend, for example, has had some great support from the school for her very outwardly and typically-presenting ASD son, but has still been told by the SENCO that he is unlikely to receive an EHCP - I think she has now relented, but has said they need to spend months collecting evidence for an assessment application.

I don't know whether DD will meet the threshold to be given one, but I think she does meet the two legal tests for an assessment.

Can I just ask do you know why LAs are allowed to have policies that are unlawful?

LAs aren’t allowed these unlawful policies. That is why they are unlawful. Unfortunately, that doesn’t stop LAs trying to get away with it. Parents should never trust what LAs, schools and professionals associated with either tell them. They should always check the information.

Your friend should just request an EHCNA herself. They do not need to spend months collecting evidence.

@EndlessLight But are their policies not audited to ensure they are lawful? (Was once in a policy auditing role 😅)

I am also still shocked at the SENCO's lack of knowledge. I know you said they just blindly follow the LA's policies, but she generally seems on the ball and up-to-date with SEN practices more widely.

Even with my own knowledge having only come relatively recently, I was aware of the legal test for an EHCNA from multiple sources.

Often the policies aren’t written down. Although sometimes they are such as some LAs unlawful transport policies. LA SEN departments are in chaos. Policy auditing isn’t at the forefront of their minds, unfortunately.

Even if the SENCO knows what the law says some then believe the LA’s line about ‘this is how we do things here’. And some know exactly what the law says and intentional mislead parents by repeating the myths the LA perpetuates.

I think SENCOs know that it's difficult to get an EHCP and confuse that with it being difficult to meet the criteria. Often, it's not hard to meet the criteria but it is hard to get the EHCP, but that's because of the barriers that the local authority put in the way and the slow timescales for everything.

Some SENCOs probably haven't read the SEN Code 2014. There's not particularly high expectations or requirements of training that SENCOs will do, although most I've met are doing their best.

There does seem to be a general assumption that either children's problems will go away if ignored or that evidence needs to be gathered by letting the child fail.

You are your child's best advocate and need to be up to date on what the law says yourself.

The actual law doesn't at all suggest being passive or letting children fail!

@EndlessLight @Phineyj Thanks, both. This board is really helpful.

I do realise how much trouble LAs are in; I'm just surprised that their policies are not subjected to external auditors.

I think this SENCO is quite genuine, so I'm not sure it's a deliberate twisting of the law. I am surprised though* as she seems fairly experienced in the hands on aspects of SEN, although obviously not the legal side. I think she does have experience of how hard it is to get an EHCP and probably thinks we have no chance.

I am actually in two minds about whether to apply though, maybe partly because of the school's view, but also because we have peaks and troughs with how much DD is affected, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

DD (8) was diagnosed with ASD in May and has also been referred for an ADHD assessment. The main struggles highlighted by the ADOS were unusual eye contact, inability to hold reciprocal conversation, inability to pick up on unspoken social cues, lack of joint attention, lack of understanding of relationships and emotions and sensory-seeking behaviours.

At school she is high-masking and presents as quite outgoing. (Though is quite reliant on one 'best friend' - her friend will often talk to teachers on DD's behalf and DD is lost if her friend is ever not there or wants to play with others). She is generally well-behaved, though is fairly frequently told off for talking. Her report last year said she needed to widen her friendship circle(!)

Academically, she is 'meeting expectations', though I feel she is not quite meeting her potential. She was actually 'greater depth' for reading until the end of year 2 (has just started year 4). She struggles with fine motor skills, particularly handwriting. Unless she puts a huge amount of effort in (and then she says her hand hurts), her writing is quite messy and much larger than it should be for her age (this has been acknowledged by her teachers, but they haven't put much focus on it). She was put in a short handwriting intervention group a couple of years ago, but it didn't really have any effect. Her gross motor skills are good, so I'm not sure about DCD, but suspect maybe dysgraphia.

Outside of school, she is anxious and rigid about routines and rituals, has meltdowns, (kicking, screaming, hitting, trying to bite) mainly over things not going as expected, having to wait or sensory aversions (mainly clothing, bedcovers, getting wet, temperature), is impulsive and quite touchy-feely/sensory-seeking with other people. But this is all very up and down.

Over the past year, for most of the year (apart from the last term, when she was quite settled) we had frequent struggles with getting her into school. It would take over an hour to physically get her out of the house and we often had to carry her into school.

As I said however, this largely improved in the later part of last year, although with the start of a new year, we have had a return. (Though today was better, so perhaps it is improving again).

We had a private sensory OT assessment done last December, which recommended sensory OT sessions amongst other things for us and the school to do. The school has only put in place one of the (minor) recommendations.

Although it was sensory-based, the OT did also do some other tests, including visual-motor integration, which showed a skewed score as her visual perception was on the 87th percentile and her 'putting it into practice' (can't remember the actual term!) was the 17th percentile. The OT said she couldn't actually complete a couple of the other tests as DD complained that her hand hurt too much, which the OT said was problematic as she went through the school as obviously more writing was required.

Sorry, this was long! So without the support of the school, would these things count as evidence:

• school reports showing decrease in reading attainment from greater depth to expected.
• OT report outlining sensory struggles and recommendation for OT sessions.
• OT report showing visual-motor integration discrepancy, perhaps suggestive of further discrepancy between ability and academic progress?
• OT report showing fine motor skills struggles
• Attendance record for last year showing frequent lates (and actually unauthorised absence as many were also marked as that) - though it does show an improvement in the latter part of the year
• emotional dysregulation reported in OT and ASD reports, requiring support? I've asked the SENCO about it a couple of times, most recently in an email she said they can try the five point scale again, but that DD wasn't responsive last time.

*Not sure why I am really as I had to educate the GP on the Right to Choose process!

Plus also the fact that we don't obviously know the extent of the provision she will need without the assessment!

Please apply. You need one in place before secondary and it often takes years due to tribunal waits.

You have lots of evidence. Don't doubt yourself.

I'm afraid I have concluded after years of this that there's no policy oversight and no penalty for breaking the law because it's "only" children, teachers and mums affected.

I mean, Women's Hour covered SEND yesterday and everyone who spoke was female.

No-one in power cares. Not really.

I had to tell my (perfectly decent GP) where patients could get an ADOS done (privately) and what therapy services are available locally (privately).

To be fair, when we finally got to see an NHS paediatrician he was well informed. But GPs often don't know a lot.

Worse...the general public don't really care either. It all sounds very technical and no-one who's not directly affected even believes how bad it is.

My teaching colleagues were amazed when I described my experiences. We all teach students with EHCP.

Request an EHCNA. Don’t let the school put you off. That is what the LA what. You have enough to meet the legal threshold for an EHCNA.

Not trusting the school or LA is a good lesson to learn now rather than further down the line.

@Phineyj @EndlessLight Thanks both for your responses. This is all really helpful. The lack of general knowledge from those who should know is appalling.

So, the SENCO has replied: "In regards to the EHCP, you are correct that there is this legislation, however, there is also more detailed guidance on criterias in the SEND Code of Practice (link below for your reference), specifically in paragraph 9.14.

I hope this is useful in your decision making, as to whether you wish to proceed with a parental application. If you need more information or guidance, I am happy to support where I can and as mentioned in my previous email, XXXX (local council SEND information organisation - supposedly they give 'free, impartial and confidential information and support on SEND') are also very knowledgable and a great resource for families to access too."

I think one issue is that the school prides itself on being a very inclusive school, so there are a lot of high needs and I imagine DD's needs are seen as extremely insignificant in comparison. There is at least one child in my younger DC's class who should have a 1:1 but for whatever reason doesn't currently (they just use the class TA, which obviously has a knock-on effect on the rest of the class).

Can I just ask, where the guidance for LAs to follow references 'progress' and 'expected progress', does this solely relate to academic progress?

As in, she sees children with much higher needs not even getting the right level of support.

You don't need to (and shouldn't) concern yourself with other people's children, only your own.

I think she's encouraging you to go for it, in a coded kind of way.

The Ipsea guide is very helpful. I had to evidence that my child was making expected progress, but that it was taking much more than average levels of input to achieve that. That situation is covered in the guidance and Ipsea gives wording.

Ipsea is independent, but local "IAS" services are not and sometimes give incorrect advice due to repeating the illegal policies of the LA.

The SENCOP does not override legislation. The other points listed in 9.14 of the SENCOP are not part of the legal test. If it is available they can take account of such evidence when making their decision but the test set out in section 36(8) of the Children and Families Act 2014 is the only legal test so they can only refuse where it isn’t met. Not for any other reason.

Progress isn’t only academic progress. Things like social and emotional development matter too.

Other DC are not your concern. If they need support the school should be pursuing that. Don’t let that put you off.

Be careful with SENDIASS. Some are good but too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies. They receive LA funding so are not truly independent and will ultimately toe the party line. IPSEA and SOSSEN are better.

With regard to your DD complaining about her hand aching - does she have any other symptoms of hypermobility? This was the cause of my DDs poor handwriting and constant pain, as well as sensory issues relating to ASD. Ask school to refer to OT for assessment and advice. Both DD and DS have used a laptop from KS2 onwards due to different difficulties, picked up by OT.

@Phineyj @EndlessLight Again, thank you both for your knowledge, I really appreciate the time you have taken to reply.

I am aware that other children are not my concern; I think this just adds to my feeling like a fraud! (I just imagine the SENCO thinking what the hell am I worrying/bothering her about when my child is happy in school and she is making expected academic progress).

The SENCO suggested I meet with her new class teacher to discuss support in the classroom (I have contacted her via the office, but no response as of yet). I am also going to raise some academic concerns with her (obviously secondary to DD's emotional wellbeing, but I think also may have a bearing on).

I have also laid these out in an email to the SENCO - do you think this is overkill and not really her concern nor much of an issue? I don't know if I'm really expecting her to respond to them, but (although I've mentioned most things separately with different teachers at various points), I've never really consolidated them in one place.

These include the drop in reading attainment, the fine motor skills, the huge difference between visual perception and visual-motor integration, and, (as an example of academic discrepancy and what has made me focus on it now), DD mentioned yesterday that they've done two spelling tests this week, one on year 3 spellings and one on year 4.

For the year 3 test, she said she got 7 correct out of 25. We go through her spellings every week and she memorises them very quickly. In her spelling tests last year, most weeks she would get the majority (if not all, some weeks) right. She has a great visual memory, and I think solely relies on how the words look, rather than combining it with phonics or other knowledge. As an example, I asked her to spell 'quarter' and she tried to put an 'l' where the 't' should be (as in, didn't think logically about how the word sounded, but was just picturing the word in her head). She will also miss out letters in short phonetic words, but know how to spell longer ones she's visually memorised. I don't know, maybe that's normal?

@handmademitlove Thank you for you reply 🙂 I don't think she has hypermobility to be honest (though I do!). She was seen by an OT last year, although it was primarily sensory-based (though I know it's all linked!). She didn't highlight any hypermobility concerns, but did say that her poor grip and pressure was likely to be a sensory issue. I also have concerns about dysgraphia (though I don't know if that is actually a recognised condition any more?).

Last year, the SENCO did mention about the possibility of a laptop as she progressed through the school, but again, I don't know whether they consider her that bad. I do think her general ability masks quite a lot.

The email is wise, not overkill. It is the SENCO’s business. You should get in to the habit of following up all verbal conversations with emails so you have a paper trail as evidence should you require it at a later date.

An EP assessment will help unpick DD’s issues.

A laptop with specialist software will help. You don’t need to wait for DD to get older. She can start now.

@EndlessLight Thank you; that is what I also concluded 😅 I have started to follow up in-person conversations with emails. It really shouldn't be this way, but it almost feels like a perverse strategy game. It's also really hard to tell what she's thinking which I hate. I have also thanked her for the link to the IAS and said that I have also been finding the information provided by IPSEA helpful!

Yes, I agree on the EP assessment. How comprehensive are those usually provided through the EHCNA? Have read that they're actually not that good?

It varies. Some EP assessments via the EHCNA are very poor and not comprehensive at all. Some are better. Very, very few are on par with an independent EP with SENDIST experience. I wouldn’t seek an independent assessment now before requesting an EHCNA, though.

It IS a strategic game. You're thinking the right way.

😁

It is a really hard balance to strike with the SENCO. I do feel as though she genuinely cares about SEN, is very responsive, and, for example, on Monday, when DD and I were both emotional n the office after an hour and half's battle getting her into school (including DD climbing half-naked into the boot of the car outside the school), she was very patient with DD, sat with her after I'd left and did some sensory calming down therapeutics with her, then later emailed me with an update.

But as I said, it's hard to know what she's thinking, is constantly fire-fighting and she obviously has to balance the needs of the whole school.

She sounds like a nice person.

Sadly, however, that is more or less irrelevant to the job of work of securing an EHCP.

I'm sorry. There is no way round becoming That Parent in this game.

That is definitely becoming clear!

You can maintain a good relationship with the SENCO and pursue the support DD needs. When you pursue support, if the SENCO acts in a way that means the relationship breaks down, that tells you everything you need to know.

You also need to take into account SENCOs can move on and there’s secondary school. The next one may not be as supportive and an EHCP may be essential to securing support DD is receiving now.