8 year old DD - should these be a concern?

[spiderplant56]

Hi all,

Sorry I wasnt sure where to post this- either here or the behaviour board.

I'm struggling with DD at the moment. She's 8 and has no diagnosis of any sort. The school has not reported any issues except being behind in most things - this is reported every year at parents evening, interventions are put in place and she improves slightly then goes into the next year and the cycle continues.
However myself and DH have been worried on and off over the years whether there is some underlying issue going on or not. These are some of the issues we have at the moment:

	wetting herself/toilet refusal

	Behind in maths/reading every year

	Struggles to follow Instructions/keep on task

	Every day tasks need to be reminded - use knife and fork/ put rubbish in the bin.

	Lack of foresight to consequences of actions

	Constantly “moving” - won’t sit down to eat dinner, cart wheeling while watching TV

	Becomes obsessed with people - usually male celebrities. But always male. 

	Refusal to play independently.

	Attention given is never enough - we could go out for the day, have lovely quality time together and then when we get home wants us to then “do” something else with her. Always “what are we doing now?”

	Struggles socially to make friends, maintain friendships. Struggles with how to handle social situations so will ask “if this happens what shall I do/say?”. Tells us a lot about how she has been “wronged” by friends and this becomes the main focus. 

	Hates any kind of silence. 

	Will not rest/sleep unless in a darkened, quiet room. No matter 

how late/tired

Will not engage in something if it’s not something she has decided she wants to do. Ie film, book, board game… won’t watch, read or play it if it’s not her idea or what she has picked.

She's generally a lovely girl, can be so kind and empathetic, especially for animals. But just recently I feel like all we do is tell her off for doing something she shouldn't be or because she hasn't done something we have asked her million times to do. I'm finding it all so draining and I think she is too. I don't think she does it on purpose, more just a lack of thought on her part. I've commented to DH it's like having a toddler again!

Is this just "normal" 8 year old behaviour or should we be pushing for an assessment of some sort?

Thanks

I have no idea whether this is "normal" behaviour for a child, but it is obviously worrying you and therefore, for your own peace of mind, it is worth talking to someone.

Can you get a GP or a health visitor appointment and ask them to consider whether there is any underlying condition that may be affecting your DD? If they meet her and say that this is normal, then at least you have some answers.

There’s enough in your post to warrant further assessment. I would speak to the GP and SENCO. Has DD been referred to the continence service? What support is the school providing? Does add have an EHCP?

Thanks for replying.

We have thought about seeing the GP didn't know if they would think we were being silly and she's just a normal 8 year old.

She wet herself again today and she can't explain why she does it. She doesn't try to hide it but also doesn't think we will notice. Will deny she's done it and will refuse to go to the toilet if we notice she looks like she needs to go.
Just so frustrating.

She just does stuff with very little thought about the consequences, but not in a way of trying to cause trouble just thoughtlessness.

School do very little.

If we want her to be assessed we will need to see her GP to start the referral.

She doesn't have accidents at school but will be bursting by time she gets home.

She's behind but doesn't cause any issues today today, she attempts the work, puts a small amount of effort in, doesn't disrupt the class or anything and hates the thought of being in trouble so I don't think the school see any issue.

This must be so frustrating for you, particularly as she appears to be coping in school.

Seeing the GP seems to be the standard way in which to access any sort of help in this area. It does sound like you could do with some support. Perhaps the GP could reinforce to the school that she needs to go to the toilet during the day.

Do you have a good relationship with any of the teaching staff? Can you ask them whether there may be a reason why she won't go to the toilet during the day - are there hand dryers for instance. Sometimes it is the small things.

Speak to the SENCO as well as the GP. The school should be supporting DD.

Is she too busy doing other more interesting things to go to the toilet? It's an ASD thing I think as ds used to be the same. He also wouldn't use the school toilets. It also sounds like she struggles with executive function which is quite typical when you're ND. At school does she sit right at the front of the class? If not she might not be able to filter out distractions and might miss half of what the teacher says. I'd ask for her to be sat right in front the teacher if possible - makes a huge difference for ds. Change how you handle things. Ask her to do something, give her 5 minutes and then remind her - then leave her to do it in her own time (if poss). If she has ASD finishing whatever she is doing first is probably very, very important to her.

Be sure to keep this list you've written for any future assessment.

Really appreciate the responses.

I def think the toilet thing is she doesn't want to stop what she is doing. Which at school I don't think is a problem as she won't mind missing a few minutes of lessons.
But when I can see she is physically squirming because she needs to go but flat refuses to even admit she needs to go. It's so frustrating!!

Anyway I've put off going to the drs as I don't want her to think there is something "wrong" with her but I spoke to her today about the toilet issues and tried to get her to open up a bit about how she feels at school and if she understands things etc she says she doesn't sometimes and if she asks her teacher gets annoys or asks "what don't you understand?" But she can't explain what it is she doesn't understand!
And that yes she said she finds it hard to concentrate sometimes with the classroom noise. It's a very small classroom! The tables are laid out in small groups. They get moved around every half term so I have no idea if she's near the front at the moment or not.

But we also mentioned possibly going to the drs to make sure she's ok and if she needs help with things. She wasn't keen but atleast we have had a conversation now.

If it is something like ASD (and it sounds like it might be as you are describing lots of issues with executive functiong as well as rigid thinking, social issues and sensory issues) then she will likely struggle more, not less, as she gets older as the gap between her and her peers grows, her self esteem becomes more and more eroded and her masking abilities are no longer enough.

In addition a younger child is more likely to accept assessment and diagnosis than an older child, generally.

Assessment, especially on the NHS, is likely to take years anyway. I wouldn’t wait until she burns out or drops out of school to get her on the waiting list to be seen.

In the mean time I would start reading up all you can about autism generally and especially in girls. Also read up about executive functioning as it will help you understand why she does some of the things she does and how to help. She is not doing it on purpose. It is just how her brain works. Put in place scaffolding and strategies to help her to be successful rather than getting annoyed with her when she fails. (I am fully on board with how frustrating it is to parent a child with executive functioning issues though!). See if your council runs any courses on ASD. Mine runs fab 1 and 3 day courses during school hours for parents waiting for a diagnosis. Tells you so much, let’s you meet other parents in the same boat, let’s you know you and your child’s rights, but also gives you info about the state of play locally, which can be invaluable.

Find ways to boost her self esteem and make her feel good about herself, be that extra curricular things she is good at, finding other autistic young people to hang out with, that ‘get’ her (most of the council’s provision for autistic children probably doesn’t require you to have a diagnosis to access, but will open up a whole pile of social opportunities/activities in the holidays etc -look up your council’s ’local offer’ online), making sure you spend time with her on the things she is interested in to validate her choices or just generally accepting that she finds stuff tough and not having a go at her for not being able to do things that you expect children her age to be able to do (like stay dry).

Go to the GP with the list of issues you’ve put here. Say you suspect she has ASD and ask for a referral. Tell your child’s teacher you suspect she has ASD. Tell them about the social issues she is having and the executive functioning issues. There are things they can to help socially. Ask for a meeting with the SENDCo to discuss how she can be helped.

If talking openly in front of DD will be difficult, you could initially speak to the GP without her present.

Hi, sorry to hear about your daughter’s struggles. She sounds very similar to my 8 YO daughter [who is also about 1-2 year behind at school]. My daughter has only started to do independent reading, via joke books. I tried a few things , like cook books but she likes a good joke. Some of the issues are very normal for this age. like not following tasks, even bed wetting etc but it does sound like she does have some kind of SEN issue. It could be sensory processing issues, ADHD, anxiety or ASD. My daughter is adopted so she has issues related to her early years but across the whole of year 3 at school, there is a total mess of problems for about 50 % of the kids. The school have said it’s one of the most difficult years they have had in decades. They attribute it to missing nursery and reception over lockdown and missing key socialisation and peer to peer learning. You need to get her seen by a Child OT, ideally one who deals in sensory integration. Child psychologist too. Waiting times are long so if you can go private for an assessment that can help, as they will provide recommendations for you to follow and the school. Work with the Senco and see if you should apply for an EHCP but you need 2 terms worth of evidence about what they are doing to help her and if this is not working. Her needs have to be unmet in order to get an EHCP. Don’t pressure your daughter, she’s probably feeling like she’s stupid or not as good as the other kids in her class. Try and find ways to connect with her. Use PACE parenting methods. Good luck

but you need 2 terms worth of evidence

No, you don’t. This is a myth that some schools and LAs like to perpetuate. Any LA applying such criteria is acting unlawfully.

Her needs have to be unmet in order to get an EHCP.

Not necessarily. It is possible to get an EHCP for a DC whose needs are met because they are receiving support in excess of what is typically available as ordinarily available provision.

If you are still reading this OP then looking up PDA Society resources especially the PANDA approach mat be helpful.

I have a similar child. DH and I found NVR training really useful. We used an online counsellor from New Leaf NVR.

However, the wetting because you're too busy isn't uncommon. My poor sister had this every day after school with her youngest around that age. She said she got to know every convenient bush on the walk home!!

Sorry hadn't seen the more recent posts!

Thank you for everyone's input and advice I will be looking into all.

After a mammoth tantrum last week we really took the bull by the horns. We sent an email to her school laying everything out that we were experiencing. Asked for her to be observed and that we had an upcoming drs appointment if they wanted to add anything.

They have agreed she is behind and the academic gap is widening. May explain the increase in anxiety she's feeling. They are writing a letter to her GP that we can take to her appointment which will hopefully help back up what we go into say.