Anyone familiar with Greenwich DSPs - secondary?

[whatsagoodusername]

We have just had DS's EHCP review/secondary transfer meeting and have been pretty strongly guided towards applying for a DSP for his secondary. He has ASD/ADHD and has been in a DSP since y4. He had integrated reasonably well in mainstream y4 with a lot of support but hasn't been at all since Covid started and we aren't sure how reintegrated he'll be next year in y6 and into secondary. He regressed pretty badly during lockdown and homeschooling.

None of the ASD DSPs are particularly convenient to us (neither is his current one) and we don't know anyone with older children in DSPs. DS is bright and STEM-focused, but has a lot of trouble with regulating himself and behaviours that escalate during meltdowns.

John Roan was repeatedly mentioned. I know the school itself has been through turbulent times. Thomas Tallis seems focused more on humanities than STEM. Halley Academy is... I don't know, I've never heard much anything good about it, but then they've also had a new head and the academy conversion, so who knows! We were steered away from Woolwich Polytechnic as they're geared more toward MLD and they didn't think it would work for DS.

Just looking to see if anyone has any insight to these schools? We had been looking towards Bexley grammars because they're close to us and STEM-focused, but it does seem unlikely now that DS will cope with the pressure without a solid DSP base.

Hi there, I live in SE10 and have a DD with dyslexic type SPLD, now y10.

Honestly I would be very wary of any of the Kent or Bexley grammar schools for any child with SEN unless you meet with their SENCO and get comfortable that they can meet your child's needs. This is obviously very specific to the child or young person in question.

John Roan is our nearest and Thomas Tallis was our second choice at admission a couple of years ago. I know plenty of families with kids at both and both schools are likely sixth form options for our DD1. JR has had a long running staff morale/management issue but now academisation has happened seems to be on an even keel. Tallis has a good record of doing well by its intake at both GCSE and sixth form.

Hope this helps. The tricky thing is that we're in an area with quite a lot of choice (borough schools, several grammars, private schools with differing offerings for those with the means) which feeds a lot of parental chatter about offerings.

Hi, thanks for replying!

We did manage to see Beths Grammar pre-pandemic and it seemed perfect for DS, but very much on the basis if he would be able to cope in mainstream. We spoke for quite awhile with one of the SENCO team who was absolutely lovely and had a "oh, yes, we have a student already with that need and this is how we deal with it…" for every concern we had at the time. But it is all predicated on coping in mainstream and passing the 11+, which will be in an unfamiliar environment and a testing situation, so may just throw DS completely anyway.

It's really good to hear that John Roan seems to be stabilising. They look like they have great facilities, but have been really let down with staffing and management over a long period, and hard to judge how the new head is doing as she started from a bad place and then had the pandemic thrown at her! Tallis is our closest (two buses and a lot of walking) and it sounds like a decent school for most kids. The casual uniform would definitely be a bonus for DS, although blue is Bad.

There is so much "choice" and so little of it is suitable when we get into the SEN provision. I feel like I've been trying to find the right school for DS forever and keep running into everything being unsuitable because he's too clever for schools that cater for MLD, too high-functioning for specialist, too volatile for mainstream, too this, too that… And pandemic proved homeschooling is not an option because home is not where we do school!

I think I probably just need to give up on the idea that we have any real say on where he's going and hope for the best.

Have you visited Woolwich Poly or spoken to the Senco? I know you were steered away from it but it is a very academic , (but inclusive) school with really good support for children with additional learning needs. As it's a boys school they really know boys Iyswim and seem to be able to cope with a wide range of behaviours. Good luck with your search whichever you go with. Although it seems like a lot of choice there's probably only 1 or 2 schools that will really work for your son but identifying them is the challenge!

No, we haven't visited or spoken with them. I had written it off long ago based on distance (1hr+ commute) because I hadn't realised they had any sort of particular ASD support. When we found out they had an ASD DSP (only a few days before the meeting), I did look at its website and Ofsted and really liked the look of it and it flew up our list of preferences, then plummeted back down when the LA said it was ASD with MLD and that DS probably wouldn't fit in well. Bit of a roller coaster with it! We'll get in touch with them, no harm in talking to them!

It is a real challenge identifying the right school! We have another DS who's in year 4 and the parents in his class are all starting to think about secondary for them. I am remarkably relaxed about him atm as he doesn't have anywhere near the difficulties DS1 has - he'll be great almost anywhere. It's such a difference!

@whatsagoodusername where did you land with your school choices? Would be great if you can share anything else you have learnt about John Roan /Halley Academy/Woolwich Polytechnic - I hadn't heard great things about John Roan (especially) & Halley but these seem to the schools with specialist ASD support provision.

And just to add about Thomas Tallis - it seems quite over-subscribed! We are looking for an in-year move in secondary, so a bit more challenging.

WorriedMomSE If DC has an EHCP naming a school they must be admitted. And being full is not enough of a reason for refusing to name a school, the LA have to prove the school is so full admitting DC would be incompatible.

Thank you @Imitatingdory, our ehcp is still in application stage. So yes it would be better to get that & target the right school - it just has been difficult in the current school. Hopefully it will all come together well!
Meanwhile am trying to gather info on the schools with ASD support provision in Greenwich borough & maybe even surrounding areas (could potentially move for the right/ great fit school if there is such a thing 😅)

WorriedmomSE yes, it would be better to wait for the EHCP before moving, especially as it is highly unlikely you would get a place in a DSP without an EHCP. Be aware if you move LAs with an EHCP the new LA could amend, reassess or potentially even cease to maintain.

@WorriedMomSE We've ended up putting DS in for Crown Woods mainstream in the end. We don't know yet if he's got a place there though (LA said we'd find out in February).

We visited John Roan. DSP lead seemed lovely, but kept pushing us toward Thomas Tallis, which felt very odd. "Have you seen TT? You should look at TT. My kids went to TT, we loved it..." She also very quickly changed the subject when we brought up A level options. I did see something on the always-reliable-Facebook that a number of the SEN staff had their jobs cut shortly after we visited. If true, this may have been a factor in her attitude.

We visited TT on both an open evening and an open morning. We didn't warm to it. SEN staff (not sure who she was, but not DSP lead) that we spoke to was lovely, but the school was noisy and she pretty much shrugged and "there's nothing we can do about it". Which is true, in that the buildings aren't set up to absorb sound, but it didn't feel great for DS. He did love the science experiments going on in the classroom during the open evening though! (Fire!)

We visited Crown Woods as it's the closest to us and were very pleasantly surprised. Open evening was crowded and noisy and DS was quite overwhelmed. We talked to the SENCO for quite awhile and she was great and everything she said sounded very reassuring. We visited an English classroom and one of the teachers clocked us as we came in, saw DS was stressed, immediately offered to turn off the music, looked at DS again, and took us into the next room which was quiet and empty and chatted through everything with us.

We visited again on an open morning and started off on a big group tour. Within 5 minutes we knew that wasn't going to work, so DH asked the Head if we could have a tour on our own. He was lovely and immediately got two girls to show us around. Both had some SN (dyslexia and stutter, I think) who both were enthusiastic about everything, including SEN provision.

Crown Woods has a DSP space, but isn't quite right for DS (he would not get a place there), but SENCO said the facilities (sensory room, etc) would be available to him if necessary. He's spending most of his time now in mainstream with support, so we are hopeful that he can cope with support at Crown Woods. We put down TT DSP as our second choice, but I don't think we'll get it, which will leave us at TT mainstream, which I think will be a disaster.

We never did get around to looking at Woolwich Poly as it's really too far - it would have been 1.5hours commute each way. Halley Academy we didn't look at because it only aims for 50% reintegration into mainstream and that felt like a step back for DS.

@Imitatingdory good point on a different LA. Will focus on initial hurdle of even getting the EHCP first!

@whatsagoodusername thank you so much for such a detailed response! And so informative. With a late diagnosis, am still figuring this maze.
Given your son has EHCP, do you not get to secure a place in your preferred school?

Interesting to hear about John Roan - or actually concerning if it's true that SEN jobs have been cut. With the pandemic/ lockdowns of last couple of years, SEN kids would have been hurt badly already.
Thomas Tallis seems a really popular option in Greenwich but your input is a good reminder that we need to actually visit with DS and see.
I hadn't considered Crown Woods, adding to my list to contact, thanks.
On Halley, I didn't spot the 50% mainstream bit ,. Would have thought it's individual specific, but will ask them.

@WorriedMomSE With the EHCP, we get first consideration at schools - we don't apply through the usual channels. But the school is able to look at his EHCP and say they can't meet his needs, therefore can't admit him.

We don't think this will happen with Crown Woods, but we are a bit wary because the EHCP hasn't been updated since it was finalised at the beginning of year 4. So everything is based around how he was doing in year 3, which was his particularly challenging year when everything went wrong. We've had two reviews since then. The first we all agreed that it was still applicable, and then there was Covid. We are still waiting for various people to see him so that they can make recommendations for support in KS3. So the plan that has gone to schools is now quite out of date! We should have challenged it, but we haven't had the energy to fight and by the time we would have got through tribunal it probably would have been too late and they'd still have to find the people to do it. So now we're just waiting to get to secondary and update with the reality of his life there.

SEN provision is a total, complicated maze!

I don't know if the staffing issue at John Roan was true, but we were quite put off by the pushing of TT by them so, with that and the added distance factor for us, we dropped the idea.

I know one of the kids from DS's primary DSP went on to TT DSP this year, and another has applied for a space there for next year. I think it is probably good, but DS is very noise-sensitive and it all just echoed. The DSP is down a corridor with lots of mainstream classes, so I don't think there was any escape from it. They said they had a "Quiet Club" at lunch where the kids could go for a calm place to eat and relax, which DS liked the sound of. But otherwise it was just all overload for him.

Unless the school is wholly independent the LA must name the parents’ preference unless they can prove:

• The setting is unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or special educational needs (“SEN”) of the child or young person; or
• The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others; or
• The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the efficient use of resources.

The bar is relatively high, and if the LA can’t prove one of the above they can, and must, name the school regardless of the school’s objections and claims they can’t meet the pupil’s needs.

We are still waiting for various people to see him so that they can make recommendations for support in KS3.

Sounds like DS needs a reassessment of needs, which has statutory timescales.

worriedmomSE I think many LAs set up their ARPs with the belief if a child can manage more than 50% in MS then MS should be able to meet needs even if that means withdrawal from some lessons for 1:1 or small group interventions.

worriedmom Hello. We have spoken before about your Ds. As you know, I have a Ds at one of the schools you mention. (I don't want to name it on this board as it's very outing.)
How are you getting on with the EHCP process? You say it's at the application stage - does that mean you're waiting to hear if they're going to assess? If so - make sure you hold the LEA to the legal timeframes!

whatsagoodusername - hope your Ds gets the school you want. As
Imitatingdory says, the benchmark for them to refuse to name the school of your choice is high. I remember what a nerve-wracking time it is though. I got my outcome via email last Feb when I was on the bus. I burst into tears with relief.

I was also going to flag that I've heard the NAS has opened a new secondary school called the Vanguard school in SE11. May not be appropriate for your Dc (it's very small) but might be worth keeping on the radar.

@Toomanyminifigs yes indeed I recall your helpful inputs. On EHCP, the council has come back to say they will inform by mid-March whether EHC needs assessment will proceed. Given original EHC request was made by school around end Nov/early Dec, it is over 6 weeks now and my understanding is that the council should have communicated decision on whether to assess or not within 6 weeks?

FYI am referring to the guidance on IPSEA website: 6 weeks for decision to assess or not + 16 weeks for EHC Plan decision. It feels like we are delayed on step 1 itself massively.

WorriedmomSE the LA should notify you whether they are going to assess within 6 weeks and if they do issue an EHCP finalise within 20 weeks. Send IPSEA’s model letter to the Director of Children’s Services, inform them if they do not stick to the statutory timescales you will be forced to begin Judicial Review proceedings as they are in breach of the statutory timescales and are frustrating your right of appeal. Usually the mere threat of JR makes the LA pull their finger out, but if not contact SOSSEN for help with a pre-action letter.

Thanks @Imitatingdory. Maybe a naive thought but would getting into war mode with council affect the outcome negatively?!

Quite the opposite in many respects. Children whose parents know the system and can advocate for their child, including enforcing their rights where necessary, get better support. It shouldn’t be that way, but it is. LAs often need to see parents know the law and are serious. If you let the LA run rings around you they will continue to do so.

@WorriedMomSE - you must absolutely put pressure on the LA to abide by the law. The timeframes that are set out aren't a suggestion - they are the law. My concern for you and your Ds is that at this rate, another school year will have gone by before anything gets even looked at. The longer a LA leaves it, the closer the child is to leaving school. Sorry if that sounds cynical.

@Imitatingdory and @Toomanyminifigs thank you for your advice! You are absolutely right, this is dragging on and I am being quoted different initial request submission dates (e.g mid Jan vs school saying they submitted end Nov). I am now liaising with the council case worker, will push on this.

Well, we finally got our "updated" EHCP with Crown Woods named!

So very glad we've got the school we wanted and now it's time to fight them on the EHCP bits that need updating. The main thing we were waiting on was an Ed Psych evaluation, which they seem to have given up on – I guess because they had to send something to the school??? There are lots of bits that are ridiculously out of date (personal statement from Y2), but the Ed Psych evaluation was the big one for us.

Does anyone know when we hear from the school itself, or should we be proactive and get in touch with the SENCO asap?

Was the EP report as part of a formal reassessment of needs? If so, it is governed by statutory timescales, and if the LA aren’t sticking to them you can go down the Judicial Review route.

I would be proactive in contacting the SENCO &/or Head of ARP, some will quickly be in contact but others aren’t as on the ball so I wouldn’t wait for them to contact you.

Congratulations whatsagoodusername Pleased for you and your Ds that you got the school you wanted without a fight.

From what I remember, it will probably be a while before you hear anything from the school. Your Ds will probably be offered more visits than just the headstart day in July though.

With my Ds I found it a balancing act between preparing him and not 'going on about' (as he saw it!) transferring to secondary. For all DC, six months is a long time when you're 10/11.

I don't think there's any harm in emailing the Senco though to ask if they have the transition dates in place yet. When is your Ds's next annual review? It would be good practice for the secondary Senco to attend that.