HELP! 8yo son challenging / disruptive in school, fine at home.

[ConcernedDad37]

Hi, all.
First time poster here. Looking for advice or where I can turn to because at the moment I’m a bit lost. – Very lost. I know it’s a bit of a read – but if you can offer any advice id be so grateful.
I’ve been struggling with my 8yo son’s behaviour at school since September. He is persistently disruptive in class and has now been suspended twice. On the first occasion I was mortified – he struck a teacher. More recently, he has been suspended for general disruption, throwing things, kicking doors, not listening etc. He appears to have some sort of anxiety / anger problem where if he cant do a task, or doesn’t do it well, he rips it up, clears his desk and has tipped his table and chairs over. He has been sat alone at a desk at the front of the class since the first week.
I cannot stress enough that we (me and my wife) do not recognise this child. At home he is fine – sure there can be problems with his older brother (11Yo) but he would not dream of kicking the doors, walls, shouting at his parents or throwing anything. He is a lovely considerate boy, comes out with a few real gems, loves hugs etc. The behaviour at school is a total mystery to me, and he confesses he cannot control his anger when it ‘washes over him’.
We were told back in September there had been occasions where he had been difficult in class. This was euphemised, so we never really appreciated the gravity of it. This continued till mid-November when he was suspended for 2 days hitting a teacher. We engaged with the school and fully supported them, agreed the suspension was fair and that we would assist in any way possible. The SENCO / School stated that they wanted him to remain at school for mornings only, and that we taught him from home in the afternoon with work sent via google classrooms. This started from that point onwards, and continued until early March. We had become frustrated that after requesting review after 2 weeks (this became 3 weeks, then 4 weeks, then just didn’t happen) to look at the effectiveness of this ‘strategy’ we had not had a review to date. When the school opened up again, the headteacher called to say that our son will remain on half days, which I challenged. A review was set up for 2 weeks after that time, which headteacher did not attend, at which point I stated that my wife and I would be withdrawing our support for this strategy. It felt like the school were looking to dump the problem with the parents to maximise their resources, as our son was considered -resource intensive. (Headteacher stated to me that if we had a 1 to 1 resource, our son would be fine, but she did not have the budget). I have been called in 5 or 6 times to ‘reset’ him, when he gets heightened, I talk with him for 5 minutes to calm him down and he can re-enter the class.
We want him back in the classroom to learn, as his education and social interaction with other kids has been suffering badly. So we withdrew out support, and also asked for copies of everything. SIMS / CPOMS / all records relating to SEN. At this point, we can see the gravity of our sons behaviour, and the recorded incidents. Notes from October / November talk about getting Primary Behaviour Services involved – nothing has happened to date. Behaviour is extreme uncontrollable anger, manifesting as throwing, kicking tables and chairs, shouting, (but NEVER hitting another child). He is told to leave the class – sometimes he can self regulate – sometimes not.
The headteacher I am sure thinks this is a parenting issue, and that we are at fault. Unfortunately, she also started in September, as the previous head left. We had a great relationship with him, and he also knew my older son well. My 8Yo sons teacher also taught my 11Yo son, who became school prefect and knows him well, and so knows this is not any lack of parenting skills on our part.
I am now totally lost and don’t know what to do. He is such a nice kid at home, as good as his older brother, so I don’t know what’s happening in the school walls. This second suspension seems extreme, given that there are records of worse behaviour that he did not get suspended for – it seems now its personal, tit for tat. I requested full access to the records (not a small amount of office work) and they now go hard by the rules. They are now citing their behaviour policy, which they never did before. All trust with the school has been eroded (apart from his class teacher who does the best she can with 30 kids). Some of the referrals seem dishonest, stating ‘no parental cooperation’ and ‘child has an educational level of a 5 year old’, the latter firmly disagreed with by the class teacher.
Sorry it was a bit of a bumble, throwing thoughts onto a page.
I don’t know what resource there is available , who we can talk to. If anybody has any ideas pleas, I would be so grateful to hear from you.
Regards
Dad

@ConcernedDad37

Extreme behaviour like this is usually the result of unmet needs.

When you say suspended, I presume you mean excluded, in which case you should have official paperwork from the school setting out the reasons for the exclusion and how long it is for. If you don't have this the exclusion is unlawful, as is the part time timetable you mention in your post. See here:

www.ipsea.org.uk/pages/category/exclusion-from-school

The school should be doing more than they are doing, and getting external services involved.

In your shoes I would make a request to the LA for an EHC Needs assessment, citing all the difficulties your child is having at school, the unlawful exclusions, the fact that school have said he needs 1:1 (do you have that in writing?) and any other evidence you have.

www.ipsea.org.uk/asking-for-an-ehc-needs-assessment

Been there. Infact the first time we realised ds2 had problems was when the HT rang me up at work saying they had had to call the police to help restrain him.

To cut a long story short it turned out both my ds's had an ASC and because of this were finding school extremely stressful leading to the type of behaviour you describe for your ds.

Clearly, your ds's behaviour is beyond the school's expertise. At least my ds's school acknowledged this and called in an education psychologist for advice, set up an individual behaviour plan (this documentation proved invaluable support for getting in extra help) and got in support from the local authority to do 1:1 sessions with the ds's on managing their anger (not terribly successfully if I am honest).

Once we had hit the exclusions stage then we applied for an EHCP for both ds's. By having to exclude him and having him on reduced hours the school is stating clearly they can not cope with existing resources and he needs additional support.

It is somewhat of a miracle that we stayed on good terms with the school throughout. But this was because both sides agreed that (i) The behaviour was unacceptable and (2) That both sides were trying to get support to improve things rather than it deteriorating into a blame game.

If your ds behaves at home he clearly knows how to behave. What you need to find out is what it is about the school environment that causes these outbursts.

Thankyou both for your responses.
I had a good talk with my son last night and although he is remorseful, he doesn’t know why it happens. He says he will try his best, but more often than not he is sent out of class for disruption.
It is also fair to say that the event that triggered the exclusion came on the back of a run of 3 excellent days at school without incident. So he CAN do it.
@Ellie
Both his previous and more recent suspensions were 2 day fixed term, we have the paperwork from the school. I think the school are playing hardball now, as re-reading the paperwork, he has presented worse behaviour on many occasions and yet no exclusion occurred. I don’t know if their plan is to exclude him as many times until some agency steps in, but as parents we have not been consulted. I am meeting with the school on Friday for a review on his behaviour.
The 1:1 comment from the headteacher was verbal, and not part of a conversation they have chosen to record on CPOMS (even though just about everything we have said to anyone is in there). Thanks for the link – ill look at the EHC assessment and ask if the school has done this, or is in the process.
@OneinEight
We had a joint call with the school (SEN) and an Educational Psychologist after his first suspension. The call was ~1 hour, and much of that was us / school explaining the situation. The EP only suggested a few tools that our son could use with dealing with his anger. Some of these were already being used, some were not, and it felt as if there was too many tools and strategies imposed on him and nothing was successful. The EP must have been all of 20 years old and though I wouldn’t question her knowledge of such things, she is trained after all, perhaps there was less experience than from someone who may recognise the behaviours and know what has a better chance of working.
Both my wife and I agree this is not acceptable behaviour and we have always taken an active role in providing whatever support we can. We reduced our work hours and changed shift patterns to accommodate his afternoon learning from home, but felt this was more detrimental to his education and social impact, especially since there was a lockdown. That is the only reason we wanted him back in the class. Reviewing CPOMS comments such as ‘Parents not cooperating’ is therefore quite hurtful.
I don’t believe there are any undiagnosed ASD. May years ago I worked in the field (with more extreme cases in older kids) and I don’t see any of it here. Communication, eye contact, sharing of feelings are all good.

‘’If your ds behaves at home he clearly knows how to behave. What you need to find out is what it is about the school environment that causes these outbursts.’’
It’s the million dollar question ive asked him a thousand times. He wouldn’t dream of repeating any of this at home. If I were to utter a naughty word, he is the first to tell me off.
I’m considering a private assessment by an EP to see if that could help out.

Was he ever like this before this year? Do you know what triggers it in school - is there a pattern to the time of day or activity or staff member?

The upset over imperfect work, ripping it up, extreme anxiety, waves of anger etc sounds a lot like my son, who it turns out is autistic. (I’m not saying your son is, obviously lots of neurotypical children have these issues too.) He was never quite at the point of hitting a teacher, he’d injure himself instead, but he’d get overwhelmed in class over something a neurotypical adult would think of as utterly trivial - a tiny spelling mistake for example. We’ve had to massively insulate him from all the constant talk on news and at school about covid catch up etc because he internalises this and becomes convinced he’s behind and useless, which he isn’t. Covid generally has spiked his anxiety- the changes in routine, the not knowing if today is the day you have to isolate for a fortnight, the constant repetition of rules about hand washing etc, the changes in rules every time we go up or down a tier.... it’s hard.

Following an assessment and his diagnosis he’s had a lot of involvement with a (private) child psychologist and it has made a huge difference - he is so much better at expressing his feelings with words and much more able to control his emotions and allow a bit of time for a small problem to be sorted out instead of the catastrophic thinking and immediate explosion. It’s not a quick fix, it’s taken a couple of years of input, getting to know him etc, but she has worked wonders. She’s also done sessions with us as his parents around how to deal with his behaviour.

At school he has a “plan”/space to go to if he is completely overwhelmed, though now very rarely needed, and his teacher knows to avoid certain triggers (he isn’t suddenly put on the spot to do something in front of the whole class for example) but I’m now assured by staff he usually requires no more input than the average child.

I can’t help you on the school, ours has been nothing but supportive and helpful, but I wanted to give you some hope that his behaviour can change. But he sounds very distressed and clearly trying to communicate something.

If your ds behaves at home he clearly knows how to behave. What you need to find out is what it is about the school environment that causes these outbursts.

I would say it is not that the DS knows how to behave at home, but that the home environment does not trigger the overwhelming feelings that the school environment does. It could be the noise in the classroom, the brightness of the wall displays, a certain member of staff's perfume, other pupils invading his space, routines changing etc

Personally I wouldn't discount autism. As the saying goes, "If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism."

Many years ago, I worked with a boy at school who behaved similarly to your son, to the point the rest of the class had to be evacuated as soon as the furniture started flying. Yet other times he was perfectly well behaved and worked hard. He was later diagnosed with autism.

My son used to get agitated if he made a mistake in his work and would growl and rub it out aggressively, or tear the page out of his book. He has no problem with eye contact or explaining his feelings. He too has autism.

secureservercdn.net/198.12.144.78/i87.725.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/UnderstandtheSpectrum.pdf

Your son behaves at home because he does not experience the same levels of anxiety.

What triggers his anxieties at school will take a lot of unpicking but I would certainly expect school to be seeking advice from external agencies by now, and to have started the local pathway to a diagnosis - from what you have written, he does not sound neurotypical.

Everything they are doing now will support an EHCP, should that become necessary.

Yes, your data request will have marked you as an adversarial parent unfortunately, as it will have created a lot of work. Nevertheless, if you found it useful then it was warranted.

I am not sure why you object so strongly to a part time timetable since your child's anxieties are so high, this seems like the obvious solution, although it needs oversight and regular review.

Thanks again, all very useful points.

I appreciate that ASD's are VERY broad ranging. Possibly there may be some very mild indicators, i agree, so i hope that these can be investigated by the EP. Unfortunately 6 months on from the school identifying PBS may be necessary, and we have no outside of school assistance.

There seems to be no pattern, nor specific lesson, teacher, room, day, time etc. It is not necessarily at a change of tasks either. My son doesnt need structured or visual indicators -we have always been able to change our plans at a heartbeat without any problems at all. The school have suggested these aids to help out, but my son isn't too bothered whether they are there or they are not.

Sometimes i feel as if he is just being naughty, because there are limited consequences at school and he just isnt too bothered about learning, and all he needs is a darn good telling off. Then i feel guilty, because it is possible that he is wired a little differently. His remorsefulness is absolutely genuine, and I do believe he tries to self regulate his emotions, but he describes it as a 'big wave that overtakes him' and he 'just gets angry'.

Our objections to the continued afternoon expulsion from class were:

1. Lack of review after 16 weeks (excepting lockdown) which we did not feel was acceptable.
2. Concern that missing lunchtime play and all of afternoon classes + play break would impact on his social interaction with other children his age. Especially after missing mornings during lockdown too.
3. Concern his education was suffering (neither my wife or I are education professionals).
4. Probably most importantly - He WANTED to go back to school. He felt isolated, and that the afternoon expulsion was an ongoing punishment for something that had happened many months back. He wants to be back in the school environment full time with his peers.
5. Least importantly - changes back to normalised working patterns would begin to make this difficult as of May /June. I didn't want to be in a position of making the abrupt change later on and dealing with a fallout that i had limited time to manage.

Thanks again all.

There shouldn't be a part time timetable. Your son is of statutory school age and is entitled to a full time education just like any other child.

I suggest you ask the school to support you in applying for an EHC Needs Assessment, and if they won't, apply for one yourself, using the model letter on the link above.

There is a model (called something like a stress bucket) which helped us understand the seemingly randomness of the outbursts.

Basically it means that the outburst is not caused by the immediate preceding event but rather by the cumulation of numerous small events during the day. The point of "explosion" happens when cumulation of stress gets so much that the bucket overflows. The solution is not to tackle so much the last event but to try and reduce overall the stress levels in the day. So, for example, my ds's could cope with a change in routine IF there was very little stressful happening on that day but it might have caused an explosion if they were having a bad day.

Having a behaviour diary might help you unravel patterns that are not at first obvious - certainly helped us. Things to consider (not exhaustive by any means): change in routine; supply teachers; particular lessons (RE was a huge problem for mine at that age); sensory issues (PE, Music, Group Activities were problems); Unstructured Activities; Playtimes; Group Work etc etc.

Also do not ignore the fundamentals like is he getting enough to drink at school, is he eating at lunchtime, is he happy to go the loo, does he get too hot. ds2 in particular behaviour deteriorated immensely if he did not have sufficient to drink at that age.

Lots going on here - your poor son and poor you. I had a dreadful time when my son was in Year 3 - he basically had a breakdown (he is adopted and lots going on in his head at this time) and he is possibly on the spectrum. School tried to exclude but I fought it (and won - you have 3 months to appeal if an exclusion is unfair) and we then did t a part time table for 2 years. The school failed him and couldn’t exclude until they had made adequate adjustments - ie by getting a 1:1. All schools are strapped for money but schools can apply for an emergency £2k whilst they go through EHCP process. The fact your son isn’t at school full time cries out for an EHCP - you can apply for one yourself (I did - felt I was more in control but had to pay for a private EP (about £1,500 - make sure you get a EP who is used to tribunal work)).

Anyway 2.5 years on and after he clung to his school place by skin of teeth - he is much calmer, has a 1:1 and is able to do full days of school. I no longer sit at my desk with my mobile clutched to my chest, waiting for school to call to ask me to come and get him. But it has been a long journey. I am hopeful he will be able to stay in mainstream.

The school is letting you down - your son needs a 1:1 and he has a right to an education and to socialise.