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Here you'll find advice from parents and teachers on special needs education.

Not ADHD OR ASD???

20 replies

BabyMommaDec2012 · 20/12/2018 22:26

Hi there - my DS is currently being screened for ADHD and ASD by CAHMS but we’ve been told that it’s unlikely that he has enough traits to receive a formal diagnosis for either condition. All of the professionals (senco, clinical psychologists, educational psychologists) are completely baffled by him. A frequent comment is that he’s ‘all over the place’ and that they’ve never met a child like him before (this obviously isn’t very helpful or reassuring for us :-/ !). He is 6yrs old and on year 1 at primary school.

In short, my son presents as NT in non-school settings. He has several friends that he’s known since he was a baby and we have regular play dates with them at weekends and during scjool holidays (they’re at different schools to him). He is very much the same as them in terms of being a ‘typical’ 6yr old. He’s a friendly and very social boy who isn’t argumentative or aggressive with his peers in the home setting. In the home setting, he’s also a keen learner who willingly does his homework plus extra educational exercises from KS1 workbooks etc. He does get giddy/hyper but this is on a par with his friends (they usually get very overexcited when they play together). He also doesn’t always listen to commands/instructions the first time, but again, this is nothing different to the childlike disobedience/stubbornness displayed by his friends.

In school, we’re hearing a totally different picture. He’s reluctant to do his schoolwork, has difficulties engaging with his peers and finds it difficult to focus/engage in class. He is often disruptive and challenging in class and the teachers find it difficult to manage him because he doesn’t respond to their reward systems. In terms of his feelings, he goes into school quite happily each morning and says that he likes his teachers. However, he does say that school/schoolwork is ‘boring’ but not to the extent that he’s distressed or a school refuser.

Despite all this, he has learned to read in the school setting and is now on the free reading programme in year 1. He has phonics classes with a year 2 class. However, besides reading/phonics, he’s not meeting his age related expectations for writing or maths because the teachers struggle to get him to do his school work. They’ve recently provided him with a 1:1 TA and he’s improved but he’s still displaying challenging behaviour. At home, he quite happily will do maths exercises but he is more reluctant to write even though he has a good grasp of grammar rules/concepts when he does write.

The boy that the teachers describe at school is so completely different to the boy that I know at home. We often tell him that it’s important to focus at school, be respectful to his teachers etc but this has no impact on his behaviour there. It’s almost as though he regresses into some sort of primal feral state when he crosses into his classroom door and then pings back into being our ‘normal’ boy again once he’s home.

We don’t understand what’s going on with him at school and neither do the teachers or psychologists. Anyone had any similar experiences???

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grasspigeons · 21/12/2018 09:47

when you say disruptive and challenging, what sort of behaviour does he do?

Have you done the obvious sight test and hearing test ?

and have they done an OT see him and then had speech and language look at his receptive communication v expressive communication as these can be very different apparently.

I'm also intrigued as to their reward system? what is it he doesn't like about it.

BabyMommaDec2012 · 21/12/2018 18:14

He doesn’t always listen to what the teachers tell him to do. He also crawls around during carpet time, talks during lessons or gets up to have a wander when it’s time to sit and do worksheets.

He had a hearing and eyesight check before the Ed psyc and CAHMS were brought on board. He got the all clear for both.

In terms of reward systems at school, he doesn’t respond to them because he’ll tell them that he doesn’t care whether or not he gets the reward (even things he loves like ipad time). He’s a stroppy little so and so at school. He’s far more reasonable at home.

He’s still in the midst of his assessments and will hopefully undergo a series of cognitive tests early in the new year. These will help to pinpoint his areas of need but we’ve been pre-warned that he’s unlikely to come out with a formal diagnosis as a result of them because although he has adhd/asd traits, he doesn’t have enough of them.

My instinctual feeling is that he’s both bored and overwhelmed st school. My worry is that there’s nothing intrinsically ‘wrong’ with him and that therapies/interventions won’t work in him. I’m scared that the only thing that will ‘fix’ him is a completely attitude/personality shift and if this doesn’t happen, he’ll be like this in educational settings forever :-)

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BabyMommaDec2012 · 21/12/2018 18:14

Argh :-) should have been :-(!

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Hels20 · 26/12/2018 19:43

Firstly - take the positives. He is age appropriate and good in a social setting outside school. The school have provided a 1:1 TA (very rare and bravo them - I assume he doesn’t have an EHCP).

My 7 year old DS has had some sort of breakdown and the school just want him out (he is in a mainstream state school) and we are currently in the midst of applying for an EHCp (I have had to do it - the school showed no interest in doing it) and lots of Ed Psych reports (both private and LA). Have you thought of applying for a private EP?
They might pick up on something else (and they are independent from the LA).

Are the school providing him with brain breaks? School can be overwhelming for a child - especially with the din of 29 other children.

Remember also that children mature at different rates - your son’s behaviour will almost certainly get better as he gets older.

Hang in there - it is tough.

BabyMommaDec2012 · 30/12/2018 18:54

Hels20 - I’m sorry to hear about the situation with your son. My son will hopefully have another Ed a Psyc assessment in early 2019. He’ll also have cognitive tests from CAHMS. He is easily overly excitable at home but having watched him over the Xmas break I’m coming to the conclusion that he’s being babied at school and that there’s nothing actually ‘wrong’ with him. For instance, at home if he starts tantruming/being stroppy, we quickly nip it in the bud and we’re aware that he’s often copying the behaviour of his two yr old sister. He quickly calms down and carries on happily. At school, with 29 other kids in the class, I think the teachers just give in to his tantrums/strops and possibly take them more seriously that they should do. He sometimes gives a knowing smirk at home when we call him out for copying his sister during his over exaggerated strops. He’s also said that the teachers don’t tell him off when he messes about during lessons - this matches the ‘supportive’ approach that they’ve said their taking with him. I think that if they disciplined/told him off more he’d quickly calm down and realise that what he’s doing isn’t acceptable. Instead, they just let him go off to the reading corner to calm down. He seems to be genuinely unaware that what he’s doing isn’t appropriate at school and the school appears to be enabling it(!)

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MumUnderTheMoon · 31/12/2018 23:42

Ask them to do a dyspraxia assessment some of the behaviours can overlap with asd. People with dyspraxia have to work harder to do everyday things that other people take for granted and can become exhausted and overwhelmed which could explain some of the more disruptive behaviours.

BabyMommaDec2012 · 02/01/2019 17:51

Thanks Mumunderthemoon. I agree that he might have issues with his processing speeds but could my son be dyspraxic if he’s very sporty/physically able? He isn’t clumsy in the slightest, was walking the day after his 1st birthday, was riding a bike (without stabilisers) at 4 and is (scarily!) good at climbing when we take him to soft play centres/climbing centres. He’s not great at playing team sports as he gets bored waiting for his turn (eg football) but he’d probably excel physically in them if he was more interested.

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MumUnderTheMoon · 02/01/2019 21:39

Being clumsy is the stereotype for dyspraxia but there is a lot more to it than that. It effects fine and/or gross motor skills and there is a form of verbal dyspraxia. Other than issues with coordination there can be problems with concentration, following instructions and copying down information,being poor at organising themselves, while they can pick up new skills they don't come naturally and they have to use a lot of repetition. There can be difficulties socialising, problems with measurement including things like time passing not just distance. Some people talk over others and appear rude when the issue is that they can't follow the flow of the conversation and don't know when it is their turn to speak. Check out the dyspraxia foundation website for more info.

Helix1244 · 12/01/2019 21:18

I think both asd and adhd can have anxiety to them so the fact he is different in school.
Imo a lot of concentration is required of them by yr 1 and even if they are bright some just cant or dont want to concentrate that long and they just dont care about the work. After all they are very young and are being controlled for 6+ hrs a day.
Unfortunately my 6yo is already in yr 2 and the work is stepping up. She just doesnt need this amount of time on each subject and it is probably quite dry.
Also as reading was too easy to learn she hasnt needed to concentrate before and there is no pay off in say maths.
Imo worksheets at home would help to target any issues.
We havent been referred despite dd literally crawling under a tabke when i tried to discuss adhd with the school nurses at the end of yr r, then also having to have a GA for doing something impulsive. School just seem to think it is bad behaviour.
But there is clearly something as she doesnt care about learning at school.
For us it may be because there are some other kids with clear sen

BabyMommaDec2012 · 12/01/2019 22:42

Helix, just so I’m clear, in your daughter’s case is that that she can do the work but simply doesn’t want to do it in school?

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DrDiva · 19/01/2019 13:58

OP, you could be describing my son, same age. Have you thought about sensory processing disorder? As a pp suggested, he was utterly overwhelmed and it became clear that it was all too much. We are working on sensory issues and things are getting much better.
I also recognise the whole “overly-supportive” thing. He was at a school that swung wildly between punitive - spending whole days sitting on the floor outside the head teacher’s office - and so “supportive” that they ignored everything, including safety issues such as running out of the classroom. I thought he had learned that if he didn’t want to do something, or it was a bit difficult, he could get out of it by playing up. We are in a new school who are great - they seem to recognise when things really are overwhelming, and when he is playing them up. A few extra homeworks of stuff he didn’t do at the right time and that pretty much stopped!
DS is also very bright and had to learn that not everything is going to be easy - that everyone has stuff they need to work at.
So for us it seems to be a mixture of SPD, and being bright enough to play the system!

DrDiva · 19/01/2019 13:59

By the way, like yours DS is fine out of school. But then the sensory issues aren’t as constant or as overwhelming as being in a class of 30 kids for 6 hours. So we didn’t actually notice it as an issue until school.

BabyMommaDec2012 · 19/01/2019 18:37

That’s useful to know DrDiva. MyDS does sometimes complain that his class is too noisy. Like you, I suspect that we might need to change schools to get him on track. The headteacher and den I are committed to their ‘supportive’ approach and frankly my DS is starting to take the mick with it :-(. It’s getting to the stage where I feel like I can’t even ask how he’s getting on educationally at school - when I ask they tell me that I need to focus on his emotional well-being. I feel like some sort of a unsympathetic monster for asking if he’s managing to learn(!). Saying that, I’ve heard that the year 2 teacher that my son has phonics classes is very ‘no nonsense’. My son actually seems to cope in this class (8 kids in total - 4 yr1 and 4 yr 1 kids) without any support/interventions. Hoping my DS gets this teacher when he joins year 2 in September.

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BabyMommaDec2012 · 19/01/2019 18:39

Ps - should say that his learning appears to be on track at hom. I just have no idea if he’s demonstrating his knowledge at school because the school won’t tell me anything!

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BabyMommaDec2012 · 19/01/2019 18:40

*den should say SENCO

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DrDiva · 20/01/2019 19:12

Oh yes! My DS was producing utter rubbish at school, scribbling rather than writing, maths a shambles, in reading he got through 4 levels in 3 years. I told them he was coming then, and they didn’t believe me. In the new school within one term he has beautiful cursive writing, has leaped 6 reading levels, and maths is a doddle.
Interesting that your no nonsense teacher gets the best results.
Here’s the sensory list in case it is helpful: www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/sensory-processing-disorder-checklist.html

One other thing: is your son premature? Mine was 9 weeks early, and all the research says that prems can present as having ASD, when it’s not. And that teachers really have no training in dealing with this. Just a thought!

Didiplanthis · 25/01/2019 22:55

Hi. Just wanted to say my daughter walked at 10 months, climbed anything and everything and can scale a climbing wall like lightening, read brilliantly but has since been diagnosed with dyspraxia and slow processing with sensory issues and asd traits. She became very withdrawn at school rather than acting out but i can see how it could easily have done in a different personality. It was a long process and we needed to do everything privately. We started with ed psych, then OT and finally community paediatrician.

Allusernamestakenbutthis · 28/01/2019 20:57

Read "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults".

Also, where are you based? I know an amazing lady in Devon who assessed my son without the need for ed psychs, etc. We did see ed psych later but it was pointless as she was spot on!

I would research sensory issues, especially auditory and/or vision (nothing to do with sight).

Allusernamestakenbutthis · 28/01/2019 21:01

@drdiva my DS was also 9 weeks early. Teachers also suggesting my son on spectrum. His brother 7 weeks early, went through all the tests, not ASD but did have SPD. The amazing thing about SPD is it can be fixed. So am a bit wider now they are suggesting my younger on the same path. The tests were horrible especially as the MRI was botched and he had to go in for a second.

BabyMommaDec2012 · 07/02/2019 00:09

Sorry for the delayed reply folks. My son wasn’t premature. Allusernsmestakenbutthis - I suspect that my son may be ‘twice exceptional’ or have ‘asynchronous development’. I’ve brought this up with CAMHS and they’ve said that the conditions aren’t recognised in the UK. Instead, my son would be described as having a ‘spiky profile’ (aka strengths in some areas and weaknesses in others).
There’s been some new developments this year. He’ll be undergoing psychometric tests at CAMHS in a couple of weeks and his school is applying for an EHCP for him.
Educationally, he’s still reading far above his age level (with good comprehension), doing ok at maths (at home at least anyway!). He really dislikes writing (like getting blood from a stone...) but can write legibly (once he finally gets going) and has a good grasp of grammar rules.

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