Expat looking for certain type of SEN in England

[mmiller2367]

Hi,

We are looking to come back to England from NJ, US as we feel that the options in England are better for our Son to find an intermediate step from Therapeutic School to Mainstream, which does not seem to catered for here. He is an Asperger and has ADHD. He is very smart, but suffers in large class sizes or classes where there are lower functioning kids. He is on medication which helps primarily with ADHD and has allowed him to self regulate where we need to look to establishing him in the right educational environment that will get him into University.

We are looking at Breckenbrough School in North Yorkshire and feel that fist the bill (will be visiting in 2 weeks) - only there because husbands work is there. All other special needs schools in that LA are Therapeutic and do not suit.

We are open to be elsewhere in England to get the right school. Does anyone know of similar schools that might suit?

What is the story with Grammar Schools and SEN? Are class sizes always large 23+ in State and Grammar Schools?

Lidia

Try looking at schools run by Priory, Cambian or Witherslack group. They have special schools similar to Breckenbrough which cater for Asperger/ADHD but with access to GCSEs.

What kind of funding would you be looking at? Because these tend to be very expensive schools (£100k+), run by private companies, and the cost is usually met (reluctantly) by local authorities, but often only after a legal battle, which can take years. The threshold for showing need is very high. Some schools allow parents to pay privately if that is an option for you though.

A grammar school would have significantly larger class sizes than a special school - up to 8 in a special school. Grammar classes could be smaller than 23 but would not be as small as 8. Not all areas of the UK have grammar schools and he would have to pass an exam to get in.

Thanks GreenGoo,

We would not be looking to spend 100K+ on private schooling, and having battled authorities here with 2 lawyers to the right services (with lots of evidence and documents that we can show to UK authorities) we are pretty determined. My impression was that there is non-legal help IPSEA to get the LA to provide the right services.

Is the battle there dependent on LA or does always need legal action.

What is SEN support in grammar schools like? He probably could pass the verbal and non-verbal reasoning tests.

Lidia

Have you considered Alderwasley Hall in Derbyshire?

I had a look round last year for DS and it's a lovely school. I have heard good things about Breckenbrough as well.
Usually you will have to go via tribunal for independent special schools due to the costs of sending a child there. But it's definitely worth it.
Some LA's are worse than others but i would expect that most LA's will oppose an independent special school placement so be prepared to go all the way!

You won't be able to start the fight until you are in the UK. If you do have to go 'all the way' through tribunals this could take over a year if the LA are fighting it, during which time he will either be in unsuitable schooling or home educated. If you want to try a Grammer and aren't (living) here for the initial applications then remember they are likely to be full and you won't get on the waiting list unless you are living in the area.. Unfortunately, at some point you will probably have to commit to living somewhere without knowing for sure what provision you will be offered.

You could also look at mainstream schools that have an autism unit, that might be a good intermediate step? Ackworth School is highly thought of, it's in West Yorkshire. There is also a specialist AS school near London that we considered for DS1, More House School. It's private.

Don't assume you can get free legal help from IPSEA. They're a charity and don't have unlimited resources.

How old is DS? Grammar school places tend to be very sought-after, so unless he's at the Year 5 stage they're likely to be full anyway.

Thanks for all the info. DS is 9 years old and would 10 years old for the next school year. We are hoping that he will go in at year 5 and have 2 years before taking on Grammar Schooll, Breckenbourgh or similar.

IPSEA is more than we have here, and ultimately after 2 lawyers and $20000 we were essentially writing all the letters and organizing the assessments and reports. So we ended up paying for the threat of legal action

Are you familiar with EHCP and so on, mmiller? Policies vary between the non-maintained and independent schools offering specific SEN placements, but some only take children via LA funding, while others are more open to private placing. Assuming you don't have the £60000+ a year for Breckenbrough and other schools, then you'll need to ask your eventual LA for a needs assessment, which will possibly involve some private Ed Psych, OT and other relevant assessments since you don't have any established care network in this country. Good reports are more important than legal representation and choosing the LA you settle in can make a huge difference to the journey you will have to make.

As others have said, IPSEA isn't a bottomless pit of legal support, but they have some excellent online resources and phone advice. If you want a crash course in SEN law, then they provide an online course at a very reasonable cost. www.ipsea.org.uk/contact/training/online-training

I'm in the North of England, so not familiar with schools in the South, but Breckenbrough is a lovely school. Even if it's not the right school, for any reason, you will find that it sets the bar very high for any other schools you subsequently visit.

Most grammar schools have classes around 25-32. We have had several students with Aspergers over the years at our school. In my county the entrance exam is now in the September of Year 6 and includes a writing test .

mmiller it cost me similar to you to move my ds from a ASD resource to an independent specialist school. LA's will fight particularly in these cash strapped times.
Unofficially, in our LA at least, children are placed in ever more supported placements as a placement fails so for ds he had full time support from age three in a mainstream school, from 11 he had a place in a ASD resource and by fourteen he had full time 1 to 1 support in the ASD resource at 16 he moved to independent specialist school.
It is quite likely that you will end up spending significant amounts of money and it taking a significant amount of time just to get an assessment of needs to then secure an independent specialist school placement could well be another fight (we had to get leave for Judicial Review because the LA were ignoring statutory guidelines) before the LA conceded and placed ds in the school we had asked for 9 months previously.
We had support initially from SOSSEN but still needed independent SALT OT and Ed Psych assessments by expert witnesses as well as employing a solicitor and barrister not least because the LA were employing their own solicitors and barristers so as to avoid funding the £50k pa placement.
Would wholly recommend taking on the course Ouyve has linked as I will be doing myself as my knowledge only extends to statements and dd's will be moved over to EHCP in a couple of years.

If your son will already be 10 at the start of the next school year then he will start in year 6 not year 5. It sounds like he is the same age as my ds who is already in year 5. You need to be prepared that all of this will take a lot of time. You're looking at 5-6 months to get an ECHP if it ends up being straightforward. Then another 6-9 months, dependent on where you live, if you need to appeal anything. Some parents go through multiple appeals to get the school place they want. If your son is bright they will want him in mainstream and breckenborough is expensive so there is a high chance you will have to go through appeal.
You're saying you want a step between therapeutic and mainstream which over here would probably be an ASD unit attached to a mainstream. They usually have very small class sizes of 5-10 pupils. Would you consider one for your son?

More House specialises in Dyslexia not ASD. Whilst it has done well with somebody's with ASD, it has refused entry to others.

SEN is treated very differently in the UK to the U.S.

Fairgame ASD units vary enormously even within the same LA. Ds's unit was 30 miles from home and the goal was that children would spend some time in the mainstream part of the school with support. During his best spell ds spent probably 60% of lesson time in mainstream so in classes of up to 30 students at his worst he was entirely in the unit usually alone with a TA or with the other boys who weren't coping in the mainstream with their TA's.
In the ASD resource close to home the expectation, indeed requirement, is that pupils will spend 80% of lesson time in mainstream. It's quite difficult to generalise what to expect from ASD units as they all have their individual remits and also their individual specifications on pupils abilities and needs.
Without having a EHCP in place first it's highly unlikely if not impossible to secure unit provision. Places are few in comparison to need and in our LA pupils are earmarked years in advance for placement in the unit.

I know that insanity i had to fight to keep ds out of an asd unit get him in a specialist asd school. I didn't mean to imply it was an easy option because its not. They are all oversubscribed where in my county. I was just putting it out there as another option for the Op to consider. Wherever op chooses, other than ms, it will be a battle due to lack of places or lack of funding. And that's after the initial hassle of getting an ehcp.

Look at Bredon School near Tewkesbury.

It's a small mainstream boarding school. Class sizes around ten or under. Very good at managing anxiety.

They have lots of pupils with AS, although they are best known for supporting dyslexia.

Fairgame oh sorry didn't realise you had insider knowledge. I think without insider knowledge though people probably believe that a child in a unit spends the day in a class of 10 (which is the size of our units) whereas they are expected to spend much of the day in mainstream. Tbh I think units are the worst of both worlds there is pressure through having to access a mainstream national curriculum which leads to a lack of time and resources for life and social skills training and of course SALT and OT support is patchy at best and non existent here outside of a special school.

If you need LA funding for an independent school, don't start your child at the school, then expect the LA to step in when the EHCP is in place. It shouldn't make a difference but it is much harder to get LA funding if you are already paying for a placement.

Yes they tried to suggest ds go to an ooc unit where he would have spent 80% time in ms. When i said no and pointed out the unit was oversubscribed they decided to open a new unit in the area for ds and one more hard to place child. This was apparently great because i could help 'shape' the unit and ds could spend 100% time in there if i wanted with a maximum of 5 kids. They guaranteed him a place in the unit til he leaves school. The other parents went for it and i went to sendist. The unit for life is now closed and ds is in an ooc indie ss. I did like the unit at the Ackworth school though that a pp mentioned, but it was full and they couldn't keep ds safe as he is a runner and it's not a locked site.

North Yorkshire in particular have several mainstream with ASD or AS units, but very few places in each.

Are class sizes always large 23+ in [State] Schools?

26 is avg for English state primary schools (mainstream).

Secondary is about the same class size or a little smaller (on avg).

I thought that cognitively high SN kids normally get places in special units within mainstream schools, & that the special schools are mostly for kids with learning difficulties? Is that wrong? Are there dedicated SEN schools set up well for high achievers?

Are there dedicated SEN schools set up well for high achievers?

I expect it depends on where you live but in our LA there are maintained generic special schools whose pupils generally leave at 19 with levels of attainment roughly the same as an average y6.There is one Autism specialist school that caters for children with autism and SLD and then there are ASD resources attached to mainstream secondaries.Up until recently ASD resources in our LA offered 6 places to cover the whole county for each year group (I think it's now ten) so the reason ds traveled 30 miles there and back daily.
It generally means that parents have to fight through Tribunal to secure a place at an independent specialist school to get provision that can meet both the needs through ASD and the high ability academic needs and again in our LA these are mostly out of County.

I thought that cognitively high SN kids normally get places in special units within mainstream schools, & that the special schools are mostly for kids with learning difficulties? Is that wrong? Are there dedicated SEN schools set up well for high achievers?

Unfortunately being cognitively able does not necessarily mean that you can cope with the sensory, social and organisational demands of a mainstream school, no matter how much "support" is offered. DS1 has ASD and ADHD and was in a smallish, inclusive and willing to be supportive (not all are) mainstream primary until towards the end of year 5, by which point he was a mess. He spent most of his time hiding in small rooms or even in the corridor, when it was quiet and hardly set foot in his classroom at all and his mental health was really suffering. His class teacher was setting and work by email because that was the only way she could maintain a link with him.

By the time he left, for a non maintained specialist school, it had taken me a full year from declaring at annual review that things couldn't go on as they were and I'm one of the lucky ones, as the LA conceded a month before tribunal.

And lucky again that we live an hour's drive from a school that could meet his needs - support him socially and emotionally, provide a non-threatening environment which enabled him to be fully included, deal constructively with the extremes of his behaviour (which they hardly ever get to see, because he's happy there) and meet his academic needs - not a complete high flyer because he's slightly limited by pragmatic language skills and by years of avoidance but he is doing level 6 maths for his year 6 SATs. Schools that can genuinely do all of that are few and far between.

I thought that cognitively high SN kids normally get places in special units within mainstream schools, & that the special schools are mostly for kids with learning difficulties? Is that wrong? Are there dedicated SEN schools set up well for high achievers?

In our LA ss are only for children with MLD or SLD. There is one ASD unit for nursery through to Year 2 and there are about 8 places. There are no other ASD units in the LA and the kids are either supported in ms with a part time LSA (very few have full time statements) or they are put in PRU's for children with behavioural difficulties. My son has to travel 45 miles per day to an independent special school that can meet his needs because there is nothing closer.

OP said her son "suffers in large class sizes or classes where there are lower functioning kids." If OP means lower academic ability, then she wants mostly/all high achievers in the classroom but close pastoral support for her son. Are there truly state-funded SEN schools like that, where her son wouldn't mix too much with 'lower functioning' kids?

DS2 is at the other end of the spectrum, in terms of cognitive ability and, in comparison, we'll be spoilt for choice. Not all great choices and one of them is absolutely dire (and currently not being pushed by the LA, even though it's our nearest special school) but we will have a genuine choice between might be OK, looks pretty good and is absolutely outstanding.