I HATE bedtime and i'm starting to resent DS, please help

[Newbeginning1]

I've posted on here recently but i'm at the end of my tether tonight and need some advice.

It's completely my fault that we are in this mess. DS is 6 months and is breastfed but has 1 bottle of formula at night time. He has always either fed to sleep or gone to sleep with his dummy being rocked by me. I'm a single mum and he's so reliant on me to sleep that i need to change things in case I ever get a night out for good behaviour

We have no routine during the day at all and i'm struggling to know when to fit in his meals along with feeds and bed time etc. Can anyone offer any recommendations as to where to start and what to start fixing first? I really dont want to do controlled crying.

Hi newbeginning.

Sorry to hear things are hard - I've got a nearly 9 month DS and similarly rocked and/or feed to sleep at that age - still do now sometimes!

I guess you want to teach your DS to self settle at night? What time is bedtime, how long does it take to get to sleep?

You say you have no day routine - what happens on an average day (wake up time, feeds etc etc)?

My DS usually wakes at half 6 so typical day:
630am wake, BF
730am breakfast
830/9am 45 min nap
1030am BF
1130 lunch
12pm BF then nap for 1-1.5 hrs
2pm BF/solids
3.30/4 BF then nap
5pm tea
5.45pm bath, story, lullabies
6.15pm feed
6.30/7 asleep

however sometimes he wakes early which means naps go haywire as he can't stay awake too long in the morning without getting cranky. This means I'll end up putting him to bed early.

We had trouble at 6 months where bedtime became a battle so for a few nights we had early bedtime after aquick routine.

I tackled naps by making sure he had one as soon as he looked tired (this meant not doing much for a few days).

On self settling I found an early bedtime helped as he was more relaxed so I could feed (in the dark/low light) and put down drowsy in the cot and pat to sleep. DS sleeps on his front. This gradually became putting down more awake. However there were days he was too wired and needed more help.

If BF to sleep is quick for you then don't worry just keep trying to put him down and patting. If he feeds for ages thn he's probably overtired and needs help to relax.

I'd start with early bedtime, then naps. Build naps around solid meals as easier!

I hesitate to give you firm recommendations as obviously I don't know your DS - they are all different in terms of appetite and how well they are doing with solids. Also they all have different sleep requirements - if there's one thing I've got from MN, it's that 'average' babies are pretty rare

However I can point you to some useful info on sleep patterns/reqirements: here This really helped me when I was trying to untangle what to do with my DS who didn't seem to need any sleep (he did - he was just overtired!)

One main tip, which I'm sure you already know, is to have a consistent bedtime routine that helps them wind down. Ours starts at about 6-6.15. Toys away, storybook (or bedtime hr on cbeebies sitting on my knee), bath, up to bedroom with lullaby CD, bottle, down in cot awake (but if lucky, sleepy!)

We started by staying in the room with hands on DS, soothing him to sleep, now we are at the stage where I just hover in and out of the room and intefer as little as possible, just repositioning if he's got himself squished up in a corner (crawling & thrashing about) and putting dummy back in. Just saying 'sleepy-time' 'mummy loves you'. He gizzles, but doesn't 'cry', though he even did this when he was proper soothed to sleep - I think it is just something some babies have to do to get to sleep. We never leave him alone to actually cry.

I guess it's kind of a version of gradual withdrawl, but after looking at all of the 'techniques', I decided to not worry to much about following a strict method and just do what felt right. It took a few weeks to start seeing some reliable results, but evenings are far less stressful now and we get a decent chunk of sleep out of him in the first part of the night now. Still have to go back and settle him a couple of times a night - and the 4/5am is a partic danger zone, but it's definitely improving.

This the daytime schedule for my DS FWIW:

6-7am ? milk (boob)

7-8am ? breakfast

8.30-9: down for nap 50mins if lucky

10-10.30 formula

12pmish ? lunch

12.30-1: down for nap about an hour maybe hr&half to 2 hrs if lucky

3pmish formula

5pmish ? dinner

6.30-7pm ? formula

Sometime between 11.30 - 2am in the night depending when wakes ? milk (boob). Also occassional snacks (boob/ricecakes/fruit) throughout the day.

With naps they all have to be in the cot as he simply won't nap anywhere else - too much stuff going on! Hopefully your DS may go down in the buggy and/or car.

My DS is now nearly 8mths and we started working towards this at just gone 6mths when we moved him into his own room. Beforehand we were pretty much co-sleeping and EBF. Formula was intorduced as part of the weaning process and he really took to it, though I do still intend to keep up with some bf for as long as poss.

Hope you find a routine that works for you & your DS

Thank you both, you have given great words of wisdom

Our routine is this:

Anytime between 7.15am - 9.15am wake up depending in whether he has come into bed with me when he wakes at 5am or not

He will show signs of still being sleepy but wont go back off to sleep but he will yawn and rub his eyes etc

I give him boob (even if he's had some at say 6am and we are up at 7am) and then I will give him breakfast. This takes normally about 1 hour as I will also try and have a shower and get him dressed. He will play on his playmat when i have a shower.

He will get grumpy and cry and I will nurse him and he will become very sleepy so i give him his dummy and rock him to sleep and he then stays in my arms for his nap which lasts anywhere between 15 and 45 mins. He wlll still show signs of being tired but fights going back off to sleep and arches his back, pinches and slaps.

I then give in and we have play time and then lunch and as hes still grumpy i will give him boob before lunch but he wont have been 3/4 hours between feeds. He'll show signs of being tired but wired so i try to get him to sleep which wont work. Then about 3 or 4 hours later he will give in and go to sleep when i nurse and rock him again. I then do boob and dinner and play time and then bath time and then a bottle of formula in our room with it quiet and dim and then he falls asleep having his bottle or if i rock him with his dummy.

Sorry for the long post! From reading what i've put i can see that his naps aren't long enough and that's what is hindering us but also he's very attached to my boob for comfort. His bedtime varies as well which doesnt help. I need to implement some lullabies or something to be on whilst he's having his milk so that he associates that with sleep. Every time he wakes up i will pick him up and nurse him til he falls asleep then put him back in his cot at night.

So, what am i best to do tomorrow? Should i wake him up early and then try and stick to some kind of shape of the day or should i change things slowly?

I really am useless at this whole mothering thing!!

Also, i forgot to say. I'm a single mum and so my son has only ever fallen asleep with someone else a handful of times and so is association and "need" for me to be with him to get to sleep is very strong so i know it's going to be hard for both of us to change that but we both need to do it for my sanity and for him to be a happier rested boy.

Hi again! Sorry I've just seen your post.

First of all there's nothing wrong with your DS feeding to sleep. He's only little! But you can help him learn to self settle. Don't worry about whether he'll sleep if you're not there - as long as he has a good bedtime or nap routine, he'll get the idea!

Ok well I'd suggest you get your DS up at the same time everyday - regardless of whether he's asleep or not. Get the lights on, curtain open etc. Have a feed then breakfast.

Then put down for first nap about 90 mins after waking - anymore and he'll probably be too wired. Watch him for tired signs - you might need to do it after an hour.

Next nap - again watch tires signs but aim for him to be asleep no more than two hours after he woke from nap. Keep doing this during the day. He'll probably nap for 45 mins a time.

Bedtime routine - aim to be finished and feeding by 6.15 ish to give time to soothe for bed. I'd just feed to sleep the first few nights before trying to put down drowsy. Keep the routine short - I'd suggest bath, change, story, one lullaby, feed.

As for feeds - try BF after a nap then give lunch/dinner afterwards. Food is just for fun now anyway!

A week of this should hopefully get things on track. Try and be flexible - so if your DS is tired in the evening put him to bed earlier. Try not to go for a later bedtime!!

Also naps - you want to aim to get him nappingby any means at first. Don't worry about how, he needs the sleep. If it means sling/pushchair/car/on you, so be it.

Self settling - once your bedtime routine is sorted, you can start putting your DS down drowsy after his feed and try patting him in the cot. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes not! Then work back from there so drowsy, more awake etc.

There will be times when your DS needs you to feed him to sleep - eg teething, ill etc. So don't worry - he won't be doing it when he's 18!

Let us know how it's going

You are not useless. Like all of us you are just doing the best you can with what you got given: i.e. a lively little man who is a black belt sleep fighter!

I would keep a consistent(ish) wake-up time. Or if not wake-up, get-up iyswim. eg. with my DS on a bad night, he can be wide awake at 5-something. I take him in bed with me and if I can't nurse him back to sleep I just lay down next to him and 'contain' him gently in the dark while he plays with his hands, pinches me & pillows etc, no talking. He generally drops off after 30mins or so. If he is still asleep at 7am, I wake him. If he was nursed to sleep and wakes around 6, I do the containing thing (sometimes give boob)until 6.30, then get up, take him downstairs, open curtains, lively play, breakfast etc.

At 6mths I think 'most' babies need a nap sometime between 1.5-2.5 hrs after they have woken from night sleep. If your DS starts to get grumpy 2.5hrs after being awake, go for quiet nap-time after 2hrs to try to head it off at the pass. At this stage I wouldn't worry too much about how he naps, just that he does, even if it is only for 20 mins. If he won't resettle after a catnap, don't stress, just carry on with the day and try again at next naptime.

I also had nap battles with my DS in my arms seemingly trying to somersault out of them!

It sounds like your DS is similar to how my DS was: chronically overtired! It took several days to a weeek to bring my DS's overall arousal levels down and at first it felt like nothing was working, but everything I'd read/been told etc said consistancy rules, so I kept timings pretty predicatable and bedtime airtight. Plenty of cuddles and everything in the day (despite the fact that I could have cheerfully thrown him out the window at time!)

I do feel for you on your own. At least I have DH, though he didn't (couldn't - works 6days 10-7) really do much to actively help at first he was there to make my tea and watch DS when I had a shower before he went off to work. Do you have anyone who can take DS in the day for an hr or two so you can occassionally catch up? And make sure you get out and see people, I know first hand how much of a difference this can make.

God it's hard isn't it? You think that if you simply pour enough love into your DS they'll be happy and settled, so when they are overtired and grumpy it can feel almost like a rejection. Of course, it isn't. Some babies just find it harder to get the hang of how we want them to sleep and need a lot more help. Here are some lovely words of wisdom: moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2007/05/moxie_manifesto.html

He will start sleeping longer stretches

He will eventually sleep through

It's a marathon not a sprint, so pace yourself as best as you can - and remember to enjoy his awake time as much as you can but likewise don't beat yourself up if you plonk him on the playmat, make a cup of tea and watch a bit of telly!

oops - didn't do link properly. Here's a live version moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2007/05/moxie_manifesto.html

Also sorry x-posted with igglybluff (took a long time coz DH is poorly and needed tending too!) - hopefully our advice doesn't vary too widely .
Pick all the best bits that suit you and stick to it - that's all any of us have done.

snuggle gives good advice - especially the bit about getting outside and having someone take your DS.

Whereabouts do you live? Any baby groups near you?

I try and get out everyday even if it's the supermarket. Also the inlaws come round once a week - which is a pain as it's hard work but now I leave them with DS for an hour or so and do my own thing.

So much good advice here. I'm sure you'll start to see some progress soon. I love the Moxie Mantra! One other thing you might find useful is this study on how staying calm at bedtime helps babies sleep.

Hi all. Sorry it's been a while since i posted. How are you all getting on with your night times?

Hi new well DS is super cranky at the moment - his top teeth are coming through. So he's not sleeping well, meaning he gets grizzly by 5pm so early bedtime. DH is reading his bedtime story now.

How are you?

I agree with everything Igglybuff said (possibly snuggle too, but haven't had time to read everything ).

Don't beat yourself up - it's really hard getting the hang of these babies, isn't it? I take my hat off to you managing on your own.

I have a 6 month old who is (usually) rocked to sleep for naps, unless he's being difficult, when I feed him.

I feed him on waking. I used to try for a nap 2 hours after waking, but I've found recently that I need to be rocking him etc by an hour and three quarters after waking to enable him to get to sleep easily.

Controlling the wake up time (or get-up-time in my case too) does seem to work in re-setting DS's body clock to be a bit more predictable.

If you're a reading sort of person, the No-Cry Sleep Solution and the No-Cry Nap Solution by Elizabeth Pantley are worth a look at. They don't give a 'how to', but have a number of different things you can try, some of which may help you, some may not. A lot of it is based around changing babies' sleep associations. I was able to reserve a copy of both through my local library.

snuggle - thanks for the link: I love the Moxie site but had never seen her manifesto before. I think it's great.

we spend far too much time on these sleep threads don't we?

Iggly - we should stop playing team tag and divide up the threads between us, it would be a lot more efficient! No wonder I'm so behind with everything else in my life...

Ah not just me then

Hi all, I'm rubbish at being on here, sorry!

Sleep is the worst it has been since he came along so I'm going to sleep train him this weekend and make a good start. He gets very worked up if he sees me and he's not in my arms so do you think Pu/pd would be best or shush pat or cuddling him in his cot? I need to be confident with what I'm doing and stick to it tonight

Well make sure he's not ill/teething etc otherwise it wont work (this could be why he's slept badly). Or has he eaten something new?

If you want quick results PUPD is probably better but it takes a long time and can involve a lot of crying. Could take three nights.

Have you got a good routine in place? So he knows it's bedtime? If so, then you're set to do PUPD. But I'd wear a thick jumper or something so he can't smell your milk as he might get even more upset as you're not feeding him to sleep. Do you have the book which describes the method? I can dig it out and post it on here for you if you want.

Or you could try patting him to sleep, but you'd have to put him down nearly asleep. However if he can roll about it's hard to get him to stay still and then fall asleep!

OP I know you said you didn't want to do CC but we did it when DD was about 6 months and whilst it was AWFUL to do it worked within 3 days.

DP started it on a very rare occasion that i was out as he 'had' to go to the toilet so put her down and was a away for 15 minutes (within earshot etc). Apparently she screamed the place down but eventually settled after 15 mins. I would rather have poo'd myself than left her screaming for 15 minutes but hey.

The next day we did it and although I was downstairs sobbing the whole time as I felt so bad she only screamed for 10 mins then was asleep.

On the third day she grumbled but was asleep after about 2 minutes. Prior to this she was fed to sleep too.

Like I say it was no fun but worked for us.

Just trying the same thing in the middle of the night now!

Sorry for the delay in posting everyone, I've only just recovered from the sleep effort!

Well, he's just too strong willed and even pu/pd wasn't working with him. He went for 3 hours crying and I didn't have the heart to continue with it especially as he was even more upset in the day because he didn't trust I'd return if I put him down or give him to my friend.

I suppose I just have to resign myself to this "lifestyle" until he's ready.