WWYD - nearing the end of my tether!

[WashIrving22]

My son is 6 1/2 months old and has never slept for more than 2 hours, day or night. In fact currently he wakes roughly every 90 mins. He starts the night in his cot in our bedroom, then ends up in with me and DH so at least I can BF him whilst lying down, even if it does take me ages to get back to sleep after each wake up. Then DH gets up with him at 6 and lets me get a couple of hours uninterrupted sleep before heading off to work at 8.

I?d been just about holding it together but then about 3 weeks ago I hit a wall, and I?m not sure how much longer I can go on getting so little sleep in such short bursts. Have had quite a few evenings where I get progressively more anxious as the evening wears on and am in tears by the time I go to bed as I know I?m not going to get any sleep. And most mornings I just feel so shattered it?s as if my bones are throbbing with tiredness.

The co-sleeping, whilst lovely being close to him, does not help me get any more sleep (or him it seems), in fact probably hinders me a bit as DH is such a heavy sleeper that I have to make sure DS2 is well away from him and end up sandwiched between the two of them lying really awkwardly in about 2 inches of bed space?.but at least I don?t have to get out of bed so much?

I also have a 2 1/2 yo boy, who is very active (show me a small boy who isn?t?) and I?m not sure I?m being the best mum that I can be to him at the moment ? some days I?m just so tired, try as I might, I just can?t summon up the energy to do as much running, jumping, chasing, wrestling, ball kicking, insect finding, painting, drawing, even book reading that he deserves. And when he?s having a day where he?s testing his boundaries in the way that 2 yos do, I don?t deal with it as well as I could sometimes and can be pretty irritable.

I really, really want to enjoy this time with both my boys, we?re never going to get it back and I want to be able to look back and feel the joy of their babyhood, not just ?thank god that bit?s out of the way?.

I had been intending to do some sleep training (CC) with DS2 and move him into his own room in a month or so, which was the light at the end of the tunnel. I had admittedly been feeling a bit uneasy about it though. Then I read the Dr Helen Ball web chat and now feel like I?d be the meanest mummy in the world if I did do it. And also feel awful as I did do it with DS1 (tho he only cried for 20 mins total one night and went from waking every 1/2 hour to sleeping pretty regularly from 8-5.30am ? I would not and did not expect 12 hours solid.), and might have neurologically damaged him!

So, this is a WWYD question ? sleep training or not?

The case against ?
Feeling like I?m abandoning my boy
It might not work ? for some reason I think DS2 will be less easy to ?train? than DS1
DS2 is such a happy relaxed boy during the day, will that change if he feels abandoned by his mum? (I should point out that DS1 was quite a high maintenance baby anyway so diff to tell if it made any difference to him)
Not feeling sure about doing it in the first place and being convinced that this is the kind of thing you have to have a certain level of conviction about if you are going to do it

The case for ?
Being a better more energetic mum to both my boys in the day
Feeling better able to enjoy this time with them
Both of us getting a bit more sleep
My getting a break for more than 90 mins day or night (he won?t take a bottle or be settled by DH either so have been unable to get out or away for more than a couple of hours since he was born)
Am I really neurologically damaging my boys? Would the influence of an otherwise consistently loving and caring environment not offset this?

I just feel terribly confused and torn between two posts. And like I?ve lost any ability I once had for perspective/clarity of thought through a haze of sleep deprivation. Am genuinely interested in what any of you would do in my situation.

Including any suggestions for jedi mind tricks that will enable me to stop being so bloody obsessed with getting a bit of sleep?..

(sorry for the essay)

Oh, I'm sorry you are feeling like this.

My DS (first child) seemed to sleep so well. 14months later, DD arrived and she sleeps terribly.

I felt awful, but I have got them both into a routine. It's been a compromise for both of them (but mostly DD).

I know, for me, what I found hardest was admitting that, while I'd found being mum to DS was easy, being mum to DD and DS was really bloody hard work. and I found it sad that DD didn't get that 1-on-1 time (I'm on my own with the kids)

So, my advice would be to persevere and get them into a routine (think it's a bit harder with boys, as they can give themselves hernias if you let them cry?)

HM x

I would sleep train.

But it doesn't have to be CC, you know. What about shush pat and or gradual retreat? And I know you say that your dh can't settle him but maybe now is a good time for him to learn? You could do the feeds and let dh do the settling. (It might need him to take a couple of days off work.)

FWIW I did something similar with my DS who seemed to me to be the king of awful sleepers. Moving him into his own room, at just shy of 6 mo, was the first step. Next was to try and soothe him to sleep with shushing and patting and singing, rather than feeding and endless walking. My DH did a lot of this but, as DS got more used to what was happening, I did it too. We never left him so I hope he didn't feel abandoned (something I did worry about). And it worked: we began getting 3 hour stretches of unbroken sleep, which was just pure unadulterated joy, and eventually he slept through. I daresay he'd have done it anyway in his own time but I couldn't have waited that long. I seriously thought I was going to go mad from lack of sleep - and, at the time, I had only the one child.

Your wish to enjoy both your sons' babyhoods struck a chord with me. I felt like that too. There's very little enjoyment in anything if you are permanently propping open your eyes with the metaphorical matchsticks and accepting headaches as a normal daily affliction.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll get lots of good advice on here; I always have. Good luck with whatever you decide to do - and remember TTSP. One day - and probably sooner than you think - you will sleep well again!

Thanks very much both.
Sariska - out of interest did you cut out night feeding when you put him in his own room? And what does TTSP mean? (Am I being very dim? Only good thing about sleep deprivation is you can blame any dimness on it...)

Do what feels right for you and your baby, and don't worry about what Helen Ball or anybody else thinks. Honestly, I spent a couple of months co-sleeping and I slept SO badly. Now I am (shock horror) allowing my baby to cry a bit and, guess what, he is getting more sleep at night and feeds much better in the daytime. Can't believe it is neurologically damagaing to leave a baby to cry for a short period of time. Did nobody else ever have to leave their newborns crying because the needed to go to the toilet/prepare lunch/eat lunch?? If you don't look after yourself then how can you possibly look after your baby??

TTSP is This Too Shall Pass .

No, I didn't stop feeding at night when I put him in his own room. I felt that he needed them (physically - as he wasn't having loads of solids - but also emotionally). I did limit them, though, both in frequency and duration to e.g. 7.30, 11, 2 and 5. Wake ups at other times were dealt with by shush pat and sometimes pick up put down. Eventually I decided he could drop the 2am feed as it was only lasting 2or 3 mins. The 5am feed then came forward to 3 or 4ish before gradually getting later again. Finally when he was about 10 mo he dropped the 11pm feed.

You post really struck a cord with me - I too really hit a wall around 6 - 6.5mths and had been co-sleeping. However I only have one DS, so I take my hat off to you.

FWIW we have moved DS into his own room and are doing a very gentle version of sleep training. It's a bit hit and miss, but we have been seeing longer stretches from him. And I've firmed up on daytime routine as well, as we were a bit all over the place.

DS was EBF until weaning started (just shy of 6mths). Mixture of finger food and spoon loading with mush - he loves his food! I have also introduced some formula - figured might as well as he doesn't have a 'virgin gut' anymore

Breakdown of what we're doing:
6-7am ? milk (boob)
7-8am ? breakfast
nap 30-50mins if lucky
10-10.30 5-6oz formula & snack (fruit or biscuit/couple baby ricecakes or somesuch)
12pmish ? lunch
nap about an hour maybe hr&half, always needs resettling
3pmish ? 5-6 oz formula
3-4 snack (as above) &/or milk (boob)
occasional catnap if getting overtired ~20mins or so
5pmish - dinner

Bed routine starts about 6-6.30 depending how the day has gone ending about 7ish with a bottle of formula, anything from 3-7oz.

Always awake when put down in cot, hands on, dummy in 'sleepy-time' 'it's only sleep''ssshhh' all with lullaby cd on quite in background. He thrashes around for a bit - often cries, but does settle after max 20-30mins, but usually about 10mins.

Couple of rules we've come up with.

• One feed allowed when wakes any time after 11.30.
• Not out of cot before 4am. After this time I sometimes take him into the spare bed and boob another couple of hours of sleep into him, though often he decides he wants to play, which leads me onto...
• If (when!) wakes before 6.30, act like it's night-time. Lie in bed in dark (have blackout blinds on all windows!) just holding him out of harms way (rolling/trying to crawl) no talking.
• If fallen back asleep, wake at 6.30 - take into light.

I know there are people who would say don't take out the cot until 6.30, but he can really make quite a racket and I get pins and needles in legs and arms leaning over the edge of the cot to lay my hands on him, so we go for path of least resistance in the wee hours. Will prob have to tackle this later, but for now we do seem to be making progress in the first part of the night and I am feeling a little more sane having had pretty reliable chunks of solid 3hrs then 2hrs sleep, even a couple of nights where I've had 4hrs then 3hrs! I do go to bed at 8-8.30 though and DH does the first part of the night - I do the wee hrs.

Sorry for long post - but maybe there is something in there that may help?

I really feel for you -6 months ago I was in pretty much the same situation with DD, who is now a year old. She woke every 2 hours, had to be fed back to sleep & wouldn't contemplate a bottle of any description.
We didn't co sleep, but she was in moses basket in our room up until 6 months. After that, we moved her to a cot in her own room. I found that she actualy slept slightly better (probably because she didn't have to listen to my DH's snoring).
The next thing I did was to stop feeding her every time she woke - for me this was really difficult, as I was worried she wouldn't thrive. (So I made sure she'd had a really good tea about 6pm with lots of protein, then a feed before going to bed, so that I was confident she wasn't hungry.) She then had another dreamfeed about 11pm.
When she woke I would pat and shush her back to sleep, and if she got really angry, then I would pick her up for a cuddle, and then once she'd settled put her back in.
It took a couple of nights for this to work, and initially she started going for 3 hours at a time. Once she was more active, and cruising around the furniture she slept better booth during the day and at night. Since she started nursery she has been sleeping 8-7.
Re the damaging your child neurologically, I wouldn't think that you have anything to worry about with DS1 (or for tha matter DS2) I read "Why love matters" a few years ago, when DS was a baby, and from what I remember- and I am prepared to be told I've remembered it wrong!- the reasoning behind the development of neurological changes was a bit more complex than just leaving the baby to cry. From my interpretation of the book, as long as you are reassuring your baby that you are there (eg patting, shushing) then you are ensuring that they are not getting stressed, thus not releasing the cortisol, ensuring normal neuro development.
My Ds is 4 and has survived this period of benign neglect, we just did lots of art, sitting in the garden whilst he dug holes, anything that kept him busy and I didn't have to do anything too physically or mentally engaging. If you have anyone who can take the kids off you for a bit, or if you can afford to pay for child care for a few hours so you can sleep, then do it. It makes such a difference to your mental state. Part of how down you are feeling about all this is to do with how tired you are, it's just hard to see it when you're in the middle of sleep deprivation.
Good luck with it, and let us know how you get on

Thanks very much for your incredibly helpful and considered replies. It made me feel a hundred times better just knowing there were people out there who would take the time and energy to reply. And lots in there for me to try. I think the key thing to do initially is to put him in his own room, at least that way I can bugger off to bed a bit earlier and DH can deal with him.

Then I'll try doing the shush pat thing (I'm not 100% familiar with the method though - is it literally just shushing and patting? Nothing more complex?) and start trying to cut down on his feeds at night.

Quite scary though isn't it? Always seems so much easier to shove your boob in to get them back to sleep when bleary eyed at 2/3/4/5am....

Also feeling much more positive today anyway as DS1 wore pants for the first time and did all his wees in the loo! So today, is a good day!

Thank you again

Hurrah for DS and his dry pants!!
Yep,if he cries, go in but don't lift him out(unless he's going ballistic) it's literally just patting gently on the back/bottom (anywhere that's accessable!!. I figured that if DD had spent the last weeks of womb life with her bum or back tucked right up under my diaphragm and therefore my heart, then a similar rhythm would be familiar and reassuring for her. I went a little slower than pulse rate though, as she seemed to go to back sleep quicker that way. You can throw in an occasional shush if you want to as well. If you're moving him into his own cot after co-sleeping, it might be worth putting a tshirt that you or your DH have worn so it smells familiar too.
It is scary, at that time of night, I'd feel like DD was going to wake the entire neighbourhood with her crying, so boob was easier than trying to see it through, but I'm really glad we persevered with it.
The other thing to consider is that he'll be teething soon, if he's not already, so this will knock his sleep about a bit too.
Good luck!(and I'm not going to tell you to go to bed- you need some you time, even if it is spent researching sleep methods!)