Started GF & now baby waking up MORE at night - help!

[anto]

DD2 is now 15 weeks old. Up till last week I was happy going with the flow and letting her find her own routine, which at about 10-11 weeks crystallized into her going to bed at 9.30ish and sleeping till any time between 5-7am then going back down till 9am. Basically 12 hours with one waking at a reasonable hour.

However, dd1 is about to start at nursery next week and we will have to get there by 8.45am. Long morning sleeps are no longer possible so this seemed a good cue to get dd2 into a GF routine. I started a week ago and she slipped into the eating and daytime sleeping routines very easily without any need for crying (I really can't do controlled crying at such a young age, think 6 months is about as early as I can stomach it). I was surprised as dd1 wasn't ready for a routine till about 5 months.

So having a daytime routine is great...BUT...her wakings in the night have become much WORST. I find it hard to get dd2 down at 7pm - it often takes till about 8.30pm and 2/3 attempts to get her off, despite getting her up at 7am every morning (no hardship as am up with dd1 anyway).

Then am waking her for a bottle of formula at 10.30pm. She takes about 4oz and is comatose so put her back in her basket at about 11pm. Then, for the past 5 nights, she has woken at any time between 1-2am for a big breastfeed and then again at 4-5. I don't feed her second time round but have to swaddle her & walk her around then usually resort to a dummy to get her back off. She then wakes again at about 6.30am.

Any ideas as to what's going on, or any suggestions? I am so gutted...feel like I've ruined her natural routine and made life a whole lot harder for myself. She's been a good sleeper since day one and has only ever woken once between 9/10pm and 6/7am so I am kicked myself like crazy...don't know why I didn't leave well alone. She didn't start having any formula till I started the new regime and is now having 2 bottles a day - could this be causing problems? I don't think it's hunger as she isn't ravenous at 7am.

HELP!!

By the way, I am only giving her 45mins-1hr in morning and 2hrs at lunch. She sometimes has 20 mins in late afternoon. By 6pm bathtime she is close to crying with exhaustion. So she isn't having too much daytime sleep.

is she hot? my 16 weeker is waking a lot with thirst. Why are you so desperate for a routine? Put her to bed - say st 8 ish and then see how long she goes? I think this Gina Ford stuff can create morea hassle than it solves..

I would hate to be woken up at night...

is she hot? my 16 weeker is waking a lot with thirst. Why are you so desperate for a routine? Put her to bed - say st 8 ish and then see how long she goes? I think this Gina Ford stuff can create morea hassle than it solves..

I would hate to be woken up at night...

Oh and mine goes to nbed at 6 and will sleep till 4 am have a feed and sleep till 7.

Well Codswallp I must admit I have lots of doubts about waking her up at 10pm for a feed - surely it's just creating a bad habit?

Re having a routine: makes me feel less useless and more in control of my life. I am not good at winging it. Also makes it easier to fit round dd1. E.g. now am doing 11am bottle so we can go to park at 10am and stay there till 12pm when we come home so dd1 can have sleep. Whereas before we'd be about to go out and dd2 would fancy 45 min breastfeed while dd1 generally bounced off walls and trashed house and herself while I was stuck on sofa.

It all seems very hard today. Bad week as dh has gone surfing with friends leaving me with the 2 of them...selfish w**r...

Anto - if it helps, my experience with both babies is that waking them for the 10pm feed never worked (although my second baby is only 6 weeks old - so not enough of a trial period really). They would be difficult to wake at that time and then they would wake themselves up again an hour or so later, almost as if that feed had never happened. In the end I just ignored that piece of advice and let them wake whenever they felt the need. Seemed to be ok.

I have just checked the mumsnet transcript of the Q&A session with GF, by the way, and there is a question from someone with a similar problem to yours - Gina reckoned it may have been a growth spurt & she suggests some alternatives, so you may want to check that one out.

Sounds like your previous nightime routine was the right one, but just 9pm to 9am instead of 7pm to 7am. You could try waking her a bit earlier each day & moving the whole pattern forward by a couple of hours? (It is often suggested that this is done gradually over a period of days - i.e. 15 mins at a time, rather than moving from 9am to 7am in one go).

Glad we agree - My day is like this 6 pm to bed - wakes once in the night - up at 6 am to 7 am never sure when - asleep again on the way to school and then a long sleep then or a nap and then another sleep at lunchtime. Then one on the way to school or about 2pm till 3 and then IN BED at 6! Hooray.

Do that its great, Why is a feed taking 45 mins? give her 15 max and read to your other one a story or turn on the tv - its not forever!

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If she is taking 2 bottles of formula a day, she may well not be making enough breatmilk as a result. Are you expressing at 10pm as I have seen suggested by Gina in her book on the threads I have read on the subject? If so you could give her the expressed milk instead of the formula. To be truthful it sounds though this mucking about with her feeds have achieved nothing but hassle. Personally I would stick with breastfeeding only - you can achieve a routine without introducing bottles and formula.

Mears, you are right about mucking around with the feeds creating more hassle but I decided to introduce a bottle of because I have been having such struggles breastfeeding dd2.

I solely breastfed from the start but since about 6/8 weeks dd2 has been refusing the breast at least 50% of the time and really works herself up into a frenzy of red-faced hysterical screaming so I have to resort to all sorts of cunning tricks to get her on to the breast e.g. giving her a dummy then after 3/4 mins swiftly whipping it out and shoving her on the boob but it doesn't always work so there we are struggling on the sofa with her red-faced and bawling and me sweating and stressed and dd1 jumping off the furniture in the background. She will NEVER take both breasts and rarely stays on more than 6-10 mins. She has however been putting on weight, although only 20z a week on average.

Don't know why she isn't a good feeder - she is completely the opposite of dd1 who was happy to slurp away for hours at a time (I fed her to 8 months so am not totally inexperienced). Dd2 just doesn't seem to find it a comfort and is a very quick feeder when I do manage to get her on so I can never feed her to sleep or use it to soothe her. The only time when she doesn't put up a fight is in the middle of the night when she's usually half comatose and can't find the energy to kick up a fuss.

So after a week when I was in tears at nearly every feed I decided that this state of affairs wasn't doing either of us any good and to introduce a bottle. Funnily enough since I started with the bottle her feeding has been much much better and she doesn't put up a fight but will feed properly, if only for 8-10 mins and only one boob per feed. However, the effects at night have been quite nightmarish...

Can understand your reasons anto, but is she screaming and putting up a fight because she isn't hungry and want to feed. One of my frineds feeds one side at a time and the feed is less than 5 minutes, but that is enough for her ds. Remember that most babies will take a bottle after a feed whether they are hungry or not because it is a different substance.
She may well be going through a growth spurt which should settel again with her frequent feeds. It is hard not to compare babies when you have B/F before, but it sounds as though she doesn't like to dally at the breast and only wants to decide herself when to feed. Sign of intelligence you know

how often are you feeding? Mine will go from 6 am till 10 30 without a feed an d then last til lunch time..

I am feeding every 3-4hrs - dictated entirely by her. Usually best feed is 6-7am (until she started waking more in night, now she's not that hungry). So she doesn't take much and is starving by 10.30ish. Then she will eat again at 2.30ish and then after her bath at 6ish. If I try before she's ready she goes bonkers. Worst feed is the 6 o'clock feed.

Part of reason for turning to GF is because she's a lot worst when she gets tired so thought if I had a regular nap routine I might avoid that situation.

Do you think my milk supply would drop off a lot just by missing out the 11am feed? I have never fed at 10.30pm - always gave an expressed bottle in the evening at 8.30-9ish.

Have been expressing throughout as have had so much milk but since giving up 11am feed have found it hard to get out more than 1-2oz at night. Haven't managed to express in morning lately as DD1 hates me expressing and repeatedly comes up and turns off electric pump or has 'accident' - not exactly stress-free environment necessary for expressing.

I feel like I have gone all wrong and don't quite know how to get back on track.

I would bin all this Gina Ford stuff and feed as you are and leave her at noght - your routine sounds just like mine. Is she on solids yet?

Think of feeds as your baby placing an order for milk. The less you feed, the less stimulation the breast gets therefore there is less milk produced because of lack of demand. If you are expressing in it's place dropping the 11am feed should not be a problem. If you drop feeds though she is more likely to look for them at night. I would make sure she feds enough during the day so that she might look for less at night. To be truthful I never denied my babies a feed - you will get back to sleep far quicker by just feeding her when she asks for it for a few days. Then your supply will be boosted and hopefully she will settle again at night.

No solids yet Codswallop - she's only 15 weeks. Why - did it make a difference for yours? Will hold off till beginning August at least - she will be 17wks and 4 calendar months. Dd1 went to 20 wks but was putting on lots more weight. Dd2 started off on 75th centile but has dropped to 25th but is still gaining weight, just very slowly.

The pendulum is swinging back in favour of Gina's routines after a day in which I just let dd2 do what she wanted. She slept 8-10am, 1-2pm and 5-5.30pm then was overtired and I couldn't get her to sleep till 10pm . Bear in mind I am all on my own with them as dh away so had no respite from 6.15am-10pm. Had a good old cry at about 9pm. Have just expressed and got out 1oz - big deal!! By the way, Bloss, I have been following Gina to letter (I'm like that) but if I had put all details of routine in first post it would have been a novel!

Will try to express again tomorrow morning and fight off dd1.

It is so hot, which really isn't helping. Dd2 has refused 2.30pm feed and did a small feed at 6pm. Then at about 7pm she drank 4oz water - maybe v. thirsty?

Mears, thanks so much for good advice. Maybe it is growth spurt and will all settle down soon (says she, grasping at straws!). Dunno why I am getting so upset about it all really as 15wks still v. early and by 6 months dd1 was sleeping through and has been a champion sleeper ever since (now nearly 3yrs). In fact this week I am angsting cos she's starting nursery next week and has got afternoon place and will have to drop lunchtime sleep - am dreading it as she sleeps 7,30pm-7.30am and still wants a couple of hours at lunch.

Off to bed now and will stop boring you all rigid. Byeee!