My 6 month and the Long Dark Nights.

[Pavlov]

Routine/sleep pattern:

7pm - unwind, stories, cuddles, wash and change ready for bed, with DD aged almost 4, and DS aged 6 months.

7:30pm, DD goes to bed, DS feeds.

8pm-8:30pm DS goes to sleep. Sometimes he settles, sometimes, he wakes a bit and takes some time to settle. Last night he settled at 8pm.

11pm-11:30pm wakes for a feed.

2:30am ish wakes for a fee.

4am ish wakes for a feed/something, then wakes every 20 mins or so until 6am, feeds then sometimes sleeps til 6:45am, sometimes he is up. Now this is the problem time between 4am and 6am.

11:30pm/2:30am - he feeds. I am happy with that. He clearly drinks milk.

4am onwards, until 6am he just wants the boob. Literally, as soon as he gets his mouth over the nipple he is asleep. He does not always even suckle. It is quite cute, if it were not so annoying and clearly a problem that needs breaking. He is back asleep immediately but the wakes in his cot 20 mins later. If I were to leave him there he would sleep the rest of the night happily

I have tried to stop him. This morning (night) he actually pushed himself at full force down to my boob and latched on! I sort of thought, he must be hungry if he is doing that, but no, as soon as he was there, hands around boob, mouth over nipple, started snoring!

I have tried to shh/pat him, cuddle then back, rub his back but not pick him up, have tried to ignore and see what happens, he just bounces his little legs in frustration.

So ladies, I need some advice and guidance to get us out of this 4am rut as it is causing havoc with my skin and the bags under my eyes

Have you tried a dummy? Might be a way of providing sucking but weaning him off your boob?

Sounds like he just wants to suck. would a dummy be worth a try or are you set against?

Hey both of you, now DH would love you! He thinks we should try a dummy. We do have a couple, and we give them to him from time to time, mainly as a distraction/pacify him when he has been very upset. Up til recently he has not been interested, just like he won't take a bottle although I think he may well take it now. But recently he has started to suckle on it, and quite enjoys it but we have never used it to give it to him regularly, even now we don't. There is no routine with it.

My concern is that if I give him the dummy at night he will become used to it to settle and wake many times if the dummy falls out, then I will spend the same number of times getting up to put it back in. I don't want him to become dependent on it.

I have in the past been very adverse to it, with DD she refused and I was pleased, but I think DS might well take it now. I just wonder if it is too late to start?

I guess this is the same with a bottle - a bottle for the 11:30pm feed might well help, and he might even take it now, but we had decided as he did not want it, we would not bother, we would just go straight to a sippy cup which we are doing and he loves. DD spent a long time coming off a bottle, after starting it at 8 months (she refused point blank before this time) and we did not want to go through that again. But perhaps we should do what he wants.

ah now some of the problem has been sorted. He is a tummy sleeper! He has always preferred this, explains why he prefers mama. But have been reluctant. He slept on his front yesterday for a nap after falling asleep during tummy time. So decided to try it last night. the best night sleep for a while and ds was more peaceful than i have ever seen.

Still lots of wakings, but did not feel so bad! 11:30pm/2am/3:30am and awake at 6:45am. But each time woke, drank milk, back to sleep no fussing or stirring at all. Lets see what happens tonight. One night does not mean i have cracked it!

fingers crossed for a good night, what is that saying...?
'expect the worst, hope for the best' or something like that...

AAAAARGH.

He wakes at 4am ish and that is it for the night, he is fussing and dozing on me only, refuses to sleep anywhere other than me with boob in mouth. He fell asleep with a dummy the other day but now does not want it other than to play with. He is also not sleeping in the day despite being tired. Unless he is on me.

Teething is a possibility, but not sure, you would think I would know with this being a second child and all!

You could be describing my DS! He's nearly 7mo and does exactly the same. We have only just moved him into his own room/cot. Was in bedside cot/co-sleeping, although fab for the first few months, it just wasn't working for us anymore (didn't involve actual sleep)as much as I wanted it to.

Anyway, he's been in his own room for 6 nights now and 4am is also a major danger time. A couple of times I've crumbled and taken him into the spare bed with me - i know I shouldn't, but I'm totally dead on my feet and just wanted to lie down. Trying to be stricter, but it's so hard.

FWIW - or rather for comparison, this is what we're doing:

Bedtime routine ending in bottle of formula at 7pm (Was ebf, have intro'd it as part of the whole weaning thing to be sure of iron). Fights sleep lots - but can usually settle 5-15min.
Generally has 2 mini awakenings/bit of crying before midnight, sometimes more.

Golden Rule is no boob before midnight, I know he's eaten/drank loads in the day and doesn't need it. Intention is to not feed him after that as he only ever actually really feeds once during the night - in fact splutters and lets milk drip out his mouth if he gets my let-down in the wee hours!

After feed, maybe get 2hrs out of him if lucky - last night he slept from 11pm to 2.30am! then was a horror from 4. Back hurting from kneeling over cot for 1.5hrs, holding/patting a squirming, writhing terror. Broke and went to feed him (still insecure about plan)- he didn't want it, just nipple! Got dummy out which helped settle for a bit, gave up at 6.45. (Other rule is to stay in cot until 7)

I take my hat off to you - you have 2! At least I only have DS to contend with.

Has your DS ever been able to sleep for a decent stretch?

snuggle problem with 2 is that DD likes to wait early too, she is up by 6-6:30am so even if he gets off to sleep again she wakes him by then [grrr] I am sure she set his early morning clock !

DS has had about 2-3 stretches of 6 hours. One of 7 (i did not sleep though as I expected him to wake any moment! and it was 7pm-2am! Other than that, he has always slept around 3 hours. I don't mind him waking for a feed 3 hourly so much, if he wants food, as up to now he has woken, fed, slept. No fussing. But then it crept in that he was waking a lot more than that and would not settle. However - he has had nasal/congestion/asthma sympton stuff going on which affected him settling at night for a long time and he would wake up not breathing well through his nose and sort of set a pattern from then on. I think this is why he likes being on his front, easier to breathe. Since then, he has had stretches of 4 hours, and one of 6 hours, last night, so it is improving, but then he wakes at 2am ish, then 3:30am -4am then bam, the rest of the time is spent trying to settle.

DH wonders if it is to do with the light. It has not bothered him too much before. But could be a problem now?

We have also said we would introduce a bottle of formula for last feed either at 7pm or 11pm. I had not wanted to, and not sure he will take it, as we had been going straight to cup, but might just throw in the towel on that one and try it.

I am so hanging tired it is unbelievable. I sat on the loo this morning watching the door sort of wobble in front of me slightly i was that tired. I have 'night time tears' as DD calls them when I get up in the morning.

But it will pass, of course it will. I shall cling to that, and the fact that in every other way he is perfect.

Pavlov - my DS is similar in that he was really unsettled after 3am until wake up time (6am )

I found that the light did bother him as with the summer, the light starts to creep through. Putting up black out blinds plus towels (!) helped.

Sometimes he would go through from 3 until 6. Sometimes it's from 4. Sometimes he would wake at 3, 4 and 5. I think, but I'm not sure yet, that it's something to do with being too tired. The thing that I have noticed is that if we put him to bed earlier (half 6), he settles faster and is more likely to sleep through (I say sleep through, I mean not be unsettled in the early hours as my DS still wakes up every 3 to 4 hours to feed). So now I'm quite anal about his bedtime.

I suggest putting your DS to bed at 6.30/7 - that way he has a chance of getting a full 12 hours of sleep. It worked for me!

igglypuff yes, maybe the earlier bedtime will help, just how to do it. He is always awake and kicking and talking at 6:30pm! He and DD have stories together at 7pm, sometimes with daddy and me in her room, sometimes in our bed snuggled then daddy finishes off putting her to bed. We are normally ready for him to be in bed by 7:30pm, but he does not like to settle til nearer 8pm, sometimes later. It is getting earlier though as he used to be up til 9pm, worked on reducing that. The jump will be the one before 7pm as it crosses with DDs bedtime routine. I would like to get it so that he is in bed and settled by 7pm, then half hour with DD before her bedtime. Eventually eh?

I agree that he might be overtired as he is not napping well either.

Yes I find naps at this age hard (DS is 8 months). He doesn't look tired but if I take him to his room, he starts to rub his eyes whereas if he's playing, he hides it well before getting overtired then having a massive fit of the tired grumps (very garbled sentence there!!)

DS makes these little huhuhuh sounds when he is tired. He looks like he is laughing, but is a little overexcited happy, and has an almost pleading look he gives. I know that look is either i want food or i am tired and with the noises i generally know (usually one is the same as the other, hungry = boob, tired = boob! ).

These last few days, not even the car has got him into a deep sleep like it normally does. Which makes me think his teeth are bothering him too.

I hope you sleep better tonight too ladies.

Hope last night was better.

Unmitigated disater here - DS clearly has no respect for the fact that today is my birthday and all I wanted was a solid 5hrs sleep!

Best we got out of him was 2 and a bit hrs between 10 & 12ish. (fed at about 12.20)Would not settle for longer than 40 mins after that. I gave up at 4.20 and took him into spare room with me. Still only got an hour, then boobed him in desperation - which made no difference, he was awake. Lay with him pulling my hair/nose/lip/hitting my arm until DH came up at 6 and took him off me for an hr whilst i had a catnap then a shower.

I so recognise the wobble vision you described pavlov - I also see vivid swirly colours when I close my eyes. This has happened before, but last time was after giving birth when the dimorphone was wearing off!!!

How many teeth does your DS have? Teething certainly didn't help with us. He had 5 come through in the space of 4wks - I was so tired then I constantly felt like vomitting. I can see the 5th just about to breech (little white dots on the eruption sac). However he is drooling a lot less now and I'm pretty sure they aren't a major prob, hence the rubbish training we are now attempting.

What really puzzles me is just what exactly is behind this 4am thing? and the not sleeping for big chunks?? I mean, in general - not just with my DS. I've inspected every board going (even netmums ) tho only post here, and from 6mo there are a hell of a lot of babies who do this pattern.

I mean I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who post on various boards do have at least a couple of brain cells to rub together and will have tried various methods, stuck it out, then tried something else. Is there an actual biological/developmental reason for this shocking sleeping? He is clearly tired and needs the sleep, but even when we were co-sleeping he would wake lots, dare I say even more. I feel if I could understand it better I'd be able to cope better.

Answers on a postcard please.

In the meantime, the only plan I have (and advice to give) is the consensus opinion that consistency rules. Whatever you do, keep doing it and not changing it.

snuggle happy birthday!! how cool are your bedrooms? My DS sleeps better if he's cooler - his room was 24C last night so had to have the fan on constantly. He slept from 1.30 til 5.30 which was a result! He also had three good naps in the day and was in bed early..... Today however he has only had two naps today so I'm not expecting any sleep.

The only thing that vaguely covers the early waking and broken sleep is a book called Healthy Sleep Happy Child (I think) which basically claims that babies need three naps a day until 9 months old. Also early bedtime means better sleep at night... Easier said than done Seriously though, something to do with being too wired to sleep properly - I'll have a read as it's based on research etc etc.

Happy birthday snuggle how mean of your DS to give you so little sleep .

A better night. 8-11pm, fed then sleep til 3am, fed, sleep til 5am. Feed on boob constantly til 6:30am while dozing on me, not really crying but grumping when taken off and likely to wake/wail if a tried to keep him off, so did not try!

Napping was better, but only because we drove for 20 mins at just before lunch time and he slept afterwards for 30 mins, then the same coming home, in car for 45 mins (i stopped at shops, kids and DH stayed in car) then 20 mins at home, so that is around 2 hours ish, can't really complain about that.

I am guessing I will just have to go with it for now and wait for the future when I can sleep without wishing away the rest of this precious time with him.