7pm bedtime - suggestions?

[Meandacat]

This isn't really a huge problem compared to some, I know, but as it involves crying it out which I am finding hard, I would appreciate input...

In an effort to reclaim our evenings, DH and I are trying to introduce our 12wo to bedtime around 7pm-ish, with the usual bath and feed beforehand. But she's not buying it.

Tbh, I feel a bit of an idiot as it's only slowly dawned on me from reading things here and elsewhere that early evening is when babies are supposed to go to bed! Unfortunately we had started by just keeping her in her moses basket in the lounge and someone would stay up/sleep on the sofa, ready to leap in to action when she needed fed while the other got a good night's kip in bed. I knew we needed to move on from this, however, so about two weeks ago we started taking her into our bedroom with us around midnight and putting her in the crib - all went well. So this week I felt that we should try to introduce her to a more sensible 6.30-7pm bedtime, and we're therefore trying to start putting her in her crib at that time but she HATES it! I am listening to her cry now on the monitor. And the more we try to comfort her (shushing, patting, rocking, whatever), the more the cries. I should add that she falls asleep as she feeds in the lead up to this, so it's not that she's not sleepy, I don't think. Also, she's been up all afternoon (well... since 3).

We've only been at it 2 days but I can't bear hearing her cry alone in her crib. That said, she is crying less hard than she did last night. She also only cried for about 10-15 minutes at a time, though on and off for about 3/4 hour. And she is finding her knuckles to suck on in between. But I feel so cruel! Am I tackling this completely wrongly? Or are we doing the right thing and we just need to stick with it?

go and get her. she is a tiny baby and CIO is not good, 10-15 minutes is a huge amount of time for a little baby!

all you are doing is teaching her not to bother crying, because her mummy won't come

Hi cat, I think it's probably a bit too soon to be instigating a routine for her, and to go from putting her in her crib as late as midnight to doing so at 6.30-7pm is a bit drastic.

You're right, early evening is the right time for babies to go to bed, but I found with my two that that didn't work till they were four or five months, and had got the hang of sleeping through the night. Don't get me wrong, babies definitely need routine, but not at 12 weeks - that seems a bit young to me.

Is your DD used to falling asleep in her cot by herself, btw?

thisisyesterday, we are going back in to see her and try and calm her, and I've tried staying with her but to no avail. It actually seems like the more we're there, the more she cries. The only option would be - as you suggest - to pick her up and bring her back downstairs. Which I am not opposed to because I think you're right and I don't want her to think her mummy isn't there for her. But then how do we get this bedtime thing sorted out?

I think at 12w it's too little to do this

I would stick with what you were doing before (taking her up with you when you went to bed)

You'll know when she's 'ready' for an earlier bedtime as she'll fall asleep and stay asleep for longer periods (IMEanyway)

The bedtime thing kind of falls into place , I find

If she's still massively resisting going to bed (ie bedtime) in the cot by 6m, rethink your strategy

12w too young to 'cry it out' (And I did CC, twice, btw - so am not opposed to it)

you'll find she does it naturally. i've had 3, and we generally kept them downstiars with us, because it was easier to feed them while they were downstiars
over time they gradually stopped waking so much in the evenings, which turned into feeding at say 7, being put in basket, waking again at 9, and going straight back to sleep again... and that is when we started leaving them upstairs

she is far too young to be doing sleep training with, even people who condone CC and CIO say not to do it with a baby under 6 months old

If she is used to being in her moses basket in the living room with you she might be finding it too quiet in the bedroom all alone (I am guessing that there would have been noise of some sort in the living room - tv, chat etc?)

I can't remember what age my ds was when we tried this sort of thing but it all seems a bit drastic, going from midnight and being with you to 6.30/7pm and on her own in one go, for the poor little mite IMO

12wo is to young? Really? Because everything I read and all other mums I've spoken to seem to have had their LOs in bed at this time already. My SIL told me off for taking her out in the pram at 6pm the other week - thought I was mad!

She can actually sleep for long periods already. She can do anything from two to as much as five hours, which is what she does from midnight and would occasionally do through the day if I let her.

I do feel that I am probably making too drastic a change to her routine. But I have no idea how to do it gradually.

Man, I wish I knew what I was doing!

Totally agree with thisisyesterday last post

Is what happened with my 2 as well

don't worry, none of us know what we're doing really!
mother;s instinct is there for a reason, and if yours is shouting at you to cuddle her then do it!

I think people mis-remember a lot of stuff about small babies, or lie! I was convinced that my first was sleeping through at around 6 weeks. Then, I suddenly remebered that I was doing night feeds when he went into his own room.... at 4 months! it's so easy to forget what you did with your own, so don't pay too much attnetion to those who tell you you need to get her into a routine etc etc

the way I see it is that small babies have one way of communicating distress to you... crying. and it seems like it must be wrong to ignore that.
enjoy snuggling with her while you watch the tv and drink some tea, they don't stay this small forever

Maybe you need to do it a bit slower. Are you doing a bedtime routine (bath, milk, bed)? Cos that can help to get LO used to the earlier bedtime.
Maybe get her gradually used to the darkness/quietness, by putting her in the moses basket in your room, with you lying on the bed next to her, in the dark/quiet.

Mine started having a 7pm bedtime at about 12wo. However, they both started self-comforting (thumb-sucking) at about the same time, so I never really had to do CIO (although there was a little bit of crying to start with).

You just need to think what would get her best used to the completely different routine, and to me, the gradual approach seems the best. And btw, only do it if YOU think its best, not just cos it worked for your friends.

Well, while I've been reading this it's all gone dead quiet. So I'll wait but if she wakes again I'll go get her.

Ok, I'll try giving it more time to let it happen naturally. But should I maybe stick with giving her her bath at 6.30 instead of just before midnight?! (I clearly have no instinct for this whatsoever, do I. So crap.)

what is she like generally in the evenings? very awake? or quite sleepy in her basket?

i'd do bathtime around half 6/7ish, hten a big feed, maybe turn the lights a bit lower so she is getting used to it being nighttime, but just keep her downstairs

are you breastfeeding?

Hi Meandacat

First thing to remember is, other people lie about how malleable and well-behaved their babies are. So take it with a pinch of salt when people say theirs goes to bed meekly at 7pm every night. We're conditioned to want to be able to tell others that our baby is 'good' - ridiculously as it's utterly meaningless at this age.

FYI, I didn't start this kind of routine with my DS till he was about 5 months. Before then, he would generally go into the Moses basket in the living room in the early evening sometime, having been fed to sleep (I was BFing). He'd then sleep soundly through us making and eating dinner, watching TV, talking etc, until 10-11 and then I would feed and change him and we'd go up to bed together.

When I did start the 7pmish bedtime, I just fed him to sleep, again, and thus avoided any need to leave him to cry. While so little I personally think yo can be relaxed about this - I know a lot of people advise otherwise, but really I think that they grow out of all these things in their own time.

FWIW, I didn't bathe DS every night either - still don't, come to that. I didn't see the point. I know for some it helps them settle, but if you feed them it has much the same effect and is less effort.

So see how it goes tonight, but IMHO I would relax the expectations a bit and let her sleep in the Moses basket downstairs for a few months yet if that's been working. Don't feel you should do something just because. And don't beat yourself up over 'lack of instinct' or whatever - DS is my first and I was completely clueless and making it up as I went along, and that's just how it is for most people.

The phone went halfway through writing this so apologies for any cross-posting/duplication but just a couple of thoughts:

1. Are you doing any sort of wind-down bedtime routine with DD eg bath, feed, bed? It doesn't have an instant effect but they gradually cotton on that these are the things that happen in the run-up to bedtime. It really helped with my DD - we started at 4wks just to get in the habit of doing it more than anything else but I'm sure she was regularly going down ok at 7pm long before 12 weeks

1. You mention your DD's been awake since 3pm so she might well be overtired when you come to put her down at 7pm. At this age I was still taking DD out for a late-afternoon nap at about 4.30pm or even later so she would make it through bathtime etc without going into meltdown.

Hope you get it sorted soon, you will be so pleased to get your evenings back! (NB I'm not sure why I feel myself qualified to proffer advice on a sleep problem as I have so many myself with DD (now 12mo)...)

Oh, yes, like Ktay said, establishing a routine leading up to bedtime helps. Doesn't have to be complicated - ours didn't include a bath (for many people it does) but did include watching a little bit of specific baby TV for about 10 mins, changing and putting night clothes on, face wash, bedtime song then up.
The Andrea Grace book 'Teach Yourself: Baby Sleep' was recommended on here and really helped me. Think you can get copies 2nd hand on Amazon - it may not be in print right now.

All still quiet...

To answer a few questions. No, I'm not BFing. Didn't work for us, sadly, though we did try. She gets fed around every four hours through the day - always has. She's not normally sleepy in the evening, tbh. In fact, it's often her worst time. I wouldn't say she's colicky as she doesn't cry non-stop, but she does fuss, cry (especially when we're trying to eat. The last two nights are the first time DH and I have eaten at the same time in ages) and is generally restless until around 10 when she starts to settle, though is often still awake. One of us would then wake her again around midnight for a bath and a last bottle before all going to bed.

As for her being up all afternoon...I agree that this has the potential for her being overtired though I am getting better at recognising this and don't feel that's the problem here. She slept almost all morning today (7-9.30 then 11 til 3). I think, as some have said, she literally doesn't want to be put to bed at 7.

I guess I just would like to see her a little more awake in the morning and a little more asleep in the evening.

ok, i only asked about the breastfeeding as it's quite common for breastfed babies to feed a lot in the evenings sometimes, so thought that may have been contributing

if she is fussy have you tried offering another bottle?
i think in general babies don't really like just being put down and left, but if she'll fall asleep on the bottle, or being cuddled you may be able to do that and then transfer her into the cot

if she tends to stay awake and fuss then tbh i'd go with just whatever makes her happy atm!

you could try maybe doing some activities with her in the morning to keep her awake a bit more and gradually change her nap times? what time does she get up if she is napping again at 7am?
i would maybe try and do somethjing like go out for a little walk, play with her on the floor for a while, sing to her... and gradually move her naps back a bit

Well, there's no general pattern to her naps, tbh! I noted them all down religiously for the past month and they are all over the place (apart from the dinner time tears)! It just so happens that the past couple of days she's slept all morning and been awake all afternoon. Sometimes it's the opposite. I felt it was a miracle that she seemed to settle into sleeping from midnight to 5ish when we started taking her to the bedroom with us at night.

And she does fall asleep on the bottle at her 7pm feed. But then flips awake the moment she's in her crib and all hell breaks loose! I'd say it was the crib, but clearly it can't be as she's already slept there fine for a fortnight.

NB. I should add the her naps are all over the place within the confines of her four-hourly feeds.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that I'm not putting any of us through this again tomorrow night. Going to go back to taking her to bed with us late at night and will just concentrate on getting her to settle more in the evening generally first. No more cold turkey!

Thanks for the comments, everyone. And if anyone has anything more to add, feel free!

If you dont mind me asking why are you getting up at 12 to bath your lo? Are you waking her for this bath?

Alphamummy, DD was/is as likely to be awake in the late evening as she is at any other time of day. There is NO pattern to her naps. So, having read about the importance of establishing a bedtime routine, and as this was when she was coming upstairs to bed with us, I thought this was when we should bath her. i.e. why would we bath her earlier if that wasn't "bedtime"?

I think part of the issue for me compared to the majority on Mumsnet is that I am not BFing and her mealtimes are less demand-led. With her naps never occurring at the same time/for the same length of time*, the only structure we have is provided by how I time her feeds. If I let go of this, then my fear is that the one "known" thing will go out the window as well. But then, it doesn't allow so much for seeing how things naturally develop.

*except, thankfully, the stretch from midnight til 5am-ish. And I totally feel I've tempted fate by saying that!

Cat, this is all completely normal. She'll settle into some sort of routine on her own, and 'pick' a bedtime. Early nights are more cultural than anything else, anyway. FWIW, my daughter has always been a late bed/late rise sort of girl, and from around 4 months to 14 months she went to bed 8.30pmish and got up at the same time. It moved an hour earlier only when daylight savings ended, and we didn't tell her.

12 weeks is far, far too young to be trying to impose a routine or habits. She's too tiny to make the connection between 'being left to cry alone' and 'teaching herself to settle'. She doesn't have the cognitive capacity to understand, and she won't for ages. Even the really hardcore sleep training proponents say not until 4 months, and almost everyone says not until 6.

Concentrate on nice cosy sleep associations, by all means. Give her a bath at the same time every night if she likes bathtime, try and introduce a soothing environment in the later evening (for us that was a dim room and the Antiques Roadshow on very low!), build up some associations that certain things happen at night and other things during the day.

But you're doing a grand job. 12 weeks is a chaotic time. You're not supposed to know what you're doing yet, really. And ignore your SIL, she's mad.

12wks is very wee! I know when it is your first you feel the pressure to do the "right" things (whatever the hell that is!) but do what feels comfortable for you, within recognised guidelines (no CIO before 6m, for example).

If it's any help at all, we always did our 'bedtime' routine at the time that we hoped that DS would eventually start going to bed. So from a very early age, DS1 and 2 were bathed, jammied and fed by 7pm - even when they were only going to be put down in the moses basket downstairs (which was until they were a few months old IIRC).

Once they were a few weeks old, I would try to distinguish naps and bedtime by only using the moses basket at bedtime (but we did have a baby bouncer that lay flat and a pram with carrycot!)

When they started to have more 'restful' evenings, we started to do the bedtime feed upstairs and put them down there. This took longer with DS2 as I wanted to keep him downstairs with us for a while longer...