bedtime nightmare - please help!

[picklesrule]

DD is 7 months and for about the last 6 weeks has been a nightmare at bedtime. At first i'm pretty sure it was teething pain but that seems fine now but she still takes forever to settle where before she would go straight down.

She will lie down happily in her cot but as soon as I leave the room screams like mad. It is then an hour and a half (at least) of rocking/shushing/singing/pupd/etc etc until something will finally work and she goes off...
It doesn't seem to make a difference whether she has had good naps in the day or very little, she is still the same at bedtime.. sometimes she definately seems overtired but othertimes she definately isn't. We don;t have a proper routine though really and I wonder if this is messing things up for her??

If anyone has any tips/experiences I would love to hear them, am just really dreading bedtimes now

Hi pickles, I think you've hit the nail on the head here, a bedtime routine is what she needs I think, just so she knows what's coming, and has time to wind down.
Ours goes like this (DD 10 months)
6.15 bath, after bath into our darkened bedroom to get dry and dressed, soft talking and singing.
Downstairs for the CBeebies bedtime story at 6.50pm whilst she has her bottle. (She can't see the tv just hear the story - as I can't seem to manage a story book and a bottle!) By the time the goodnight song has started she is dropping off.
Take her upstairs and put her in her cot, keep hand on her until she is in deep sleep (she also can't settle herself off to sleep)
She goes to bed like a dream each night. No fussing. She used to make a drama out of it like your DD until I put the routine in place.
She does however wake on and off through the night, but never for more than 5-10 minutes thankfully! Am working on this!
If you try and adapt the above to something that fits in with you, she will soon realise that starting with the bath, that's wind down time. I think they like to know what to expect.
Hope this helps a little, good luck!

P.S She may also be suffering seperation anxiety which is common at this age - in which case it is just a phase and she will eventually grow out of it - the routine will help to make her feel more secure as well, so will help with that.

Thanks for such a speedy reply daydreamdolly. That sounds like a nice relaxing bedtime routine! I have tried to have a bath-feed-bed routine with DD (it is during the day that we really have no routine at all!) but I do feel like it is not particularly relaxing - I think I might try the darkened bedroom for dressing and stories while feeding.

Does your DD have a a good daytime routine for her naps? We are struggling with these also and while even good nap days have horrid bedtimes I wonder if it is having a knock on effect..
I don't want to have to put her in a really rigid routine and we had been muddling along on three sleeps a day of varying length but somedays (ie today) she will sleep hardly at all (3x15-20mins max) which can't be good for her??!!
Argh, think it is frying my brain just thinking about it!

It really does fry your brain trying to come up with solutions!
We have only, in the last month or so, started a fairly rigid nap routine - I say fairly rigid, I often move her naps forward or back an hour or so depending on what we are doing... I started to notice that after an hour and a half of being up for the day, she was tired again. So I now know she's going to go for a nap 1.5-2 hours after she's woken for the day, and she'll have about an hour, sometimes up to an hour and a half.
Then, after lunch, about 1.30pm, she's ready for another one for about an hour and a half. So far it seems to have had a positive effect on her sleeping at night, but she's still waking for comfort so we all have our battles!
Before she did those naps, she used to do 4 x 30 minute cat naps - she has naturally progressed to 2 longer naps, she did this herself to be honest, it was nothing I did.

Thanks again DD I think I am going to try and get her naps in a slightly more regular fashion as well hopefully that will help.
Fingers crossed it is just a phase as well - you never know she might sort it out on her own [place wishful thinking emoticion here!]

Just wanted to pop up to say thanks for this thread - was about to post v similar sitch with my DS (6mths today).

Last night partic bad. Culminated in proper screaming for half an hour until about quarter to 11. We have a bedside cot, so practically co-sleep (thought this was s'posed to help!) and was lying on bed next to him attempting sushing/patting/head stroking. Argh!

Going to be much stricter with naps. Trouble is, he fights any suggestion of sleep unless he is in the car or on booby. Even just being held is not enough. Got a big uphill struggle ahead of me I think - would love to know what I did wrong to get us in this situation. He used to fall asleep with no probs at all - in the middle of playing, on the mat at babygroup whilst I was chatting, put down in cot I'd go to the loo come back in and he'd be out etc etc...!

Perhaps try a 2-3-4 routine for sleep. 2 hrs after waking, put down for a nap (or walk in pram if that's how they nap, whatever). 3 hours after waking from morning nap, goes down for lunchtime/pm nap. 4 hours after waking, goes to bed for the night. This seems to be a very natural approach to naps/sleep and they often get into this schedule themselves.

At this stage I was always feeding to sleep or to very, very sleepy. And by no means was DS fully sleeping through the night at 6 months. Some do, some don't.

Don't forget that so many things impact sleep: teeth (big one for us), growth spurts (their little brains can't always wind down at the right time), and sleep regressions (4.5 mths/9mths/18mths). Also, if you start something new (like weaning) or they start to crawl then that may have an affect on sleep. They are learning new "skills" all the time. Have a look at archives of Ask Moxie for lots of help with sleep/development issues.

And remember, this too shall pass!

Effect! Arghhhhh!

He has had a mega developmental jump recently... is that similar to you picklesrule?

Seemingly of a sudden he was sitting unsuppported, rolling (both ways), getting really grabby at mealtimes (gently started BLW, really taken to it), vocalising loads whilst playing(babababa, mummm,mummm, puhpuhpuh etc). During awake times in the day he is a very social, sunny charmer who positively beams at anyone and everyone - always get commented on.

However merely suggest 'nap' or 'sleep' and he turns into a proper fighter - wingy, writhing, kicking, fast fierce breathing. Currently next to me in DH's arms in a pitch battle with napppage (been properly awake since about 6.15 - following the 2 hour thingy nap overdue - and he is tired, can tell)

DH managed to lie him down on bed between 2 of us - he's stroking head & i'm patting belly to try to keep asleep, keeps startling and opening eyes ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

OK, so he's going through a real leap with all those skills. If he's always "on" and alert then it's probably hard for him to switch off and settle down. You may need to have a mini nap routine, too. Start getting him ready for a nap well before he is too tired. Give him 15-20 wind down time with a feed and a story (or gentle songs). Get him in his sleeping bag (if you use one) and send signals that it's sleepy time. DS had a dummy until 7 months and that was part of nap/sleep routine.

Be consistent with your cues so that he knows what's going to happen. I used to try everything at once to get DS to sleep and I think it confused him. If rocking didn't work, I'd walk around, then try something else, etc. So pick something and try it for a while. Try not to talk to him too much, keep distractions to minimum. And maybe just have one of you put him down (rather than both).

Saying all that, if you find a way to get him to nap, then just do that! It takes a while to get into routine and a while to get out of routine, so maybe you have to lie down with him for a few days/weeks but it's not forever. Just try to get a good schedule going and don't worry so much about HOW he gets to sleep.

snugglejunkiw you could be describing my DD! She has had the same kind of developmental leap - sitting up, blw etc and she is much happier in the daytimes now but exactly the same when I try and get her to sleep...writhing, kicking squawking etc!

I'm planning to spend this week really focusing on getting her naps right and trying to find the sleep cues that will work. I've not wanted to put her in a strict schedule and still don't but I think its all maybe a bit too haphazard for ther at the mo and she needs a bit of structure..
Maybe we can compare notes as we go?

I have loosely been follwing that 2-3-4 (without really knowing it!) method J-fly but I thikn I will try and work around that a bit more specifically and see if that helps...

Very much up for comparing notes pickles!

How does your DD sleep at night once the bedtime fightfest is over? Where does she sleep: cot your room/co-sleep/etc?

Here's where we're at...
Up at 6.15 this morning (Sunday). Evening routine was:

• Bf/food, quiet play
• Bath, changed in darkened room
• Nighttime story on cbeebies (not loud, curtains closed, rooms all dark), bf
• Upstairs & dummy & held to light sleep (fought it, but no tears this time), down in cot, stroked head/held hands till deeper sleep. (~7.15ish)

Then roused at 8.30pm - unable to self-soothe, grizzled. Again at 9ish, then every ~15 mins until 10. Bf at 10 (surely he doesn't still need this feed?! Recently picked it back up)
After that slept for just on 2hrs, then woke pretty much hourly until proper-proper awake at 6.15.

This is a pretty typical night now - except he didn't actually cry when going down.

He must must be overtired! How HOW to break the cycle???!?! Pitch battle for naps all today. Was looking out for eye-rubbing and also just that feeling that he needed one iyswim.

Did about 20-30 mins around 9am, about an hour from 12pm but needed resettling in the middle of it (does that count as an hour?) and about 30mins at 3ish - this was a "milky-morphine-moment" that I extended by not putting him down - just wanted to get some form of nap in.

Argh! Sorry for long boring post!! DH here to help today. Dreading tomorrow.

Doubly about it all really as up until now it has all be quite manageable. OK so he has never slept for more than 4hrs solid but he used to self-soothe, I'd put him down with this v-tech lullaby thingy on, quietly potter in the room for a bit and as his eyes where drooping, go downstairs. Then I used to be able to get in a good few chunks of solid 1.5-2hrs sleep a night myself which was all I need (at the mo) to be able to function

He really is such a lovley boy in all other ways...

lovely
Stupid fingers. Tired fingers

Hi snuggle How was bedtime tonight?

Sounds like he is really unsettled at night..we are quite lucky with DD in that once she goes down she will usually only wake once if at all (although she does think that 5.30am is morning time unfortunately)

I think you said he is in a bedside cot? DD is in her own room now, has been for a while. For us it did make a huge difference, she was much more unsettled when in our room and waking a lot more frequently. Don't know if we were disturbning her or just responding too quickly when she stirred but definate improvement when in own room... I'm sure thats not always the case though!

Had a slightly more successful bedtime today, although not sure why - she did have a good 2 hr nap this avo though (fell asleep in car seat so left her in there) so that might be it..

Evening routine was: (started about 3.15hrs after she woke from nap)
Feed, Bath with me
Dimmed lights and did a bit of massage & sang
Dressed, Into nursery with lights out
Fed, rocked, v drowsy, into cot hand on chest, shushing for about 15 mins.

Shes now asleep although it seems the easier she is going to bed the more likely she is to wake in the night so am not holding my breath!

How was the rest of the night pickles did she manage to stay asleep?

I wouldn't be surprised if the nap was a factor. Thinking about it, whenever we go visiting somewhere a significant distance away, his sleep seems to be better for the first couple of nights. Leading to relatives saying really helpful things like
"ooo - you're just having us on aren't you he's such a good little boy"
And guess what - he spends most of the journey asleep in the car seat!

Can you replicate a 2 hour nap without the car seat? Will she go down in the cot in the day?

Last night was a blardy nightmare!!!

Attempted normal bedtime routine food/bf, quietplay, bath etc.. however bed was a bit earlier than usual as he was so clearly overtired he was squeaking with over-excited delight whilst I was trying to get him dressed from bath, I could see in his eyes he was 'on the edge'. So I skipped straight to bf and he fell asleep on the boob after having a good drink. Replaced with dummy and transsferred to cot. Few grumbles but settled with hand on belly (6.15ish)....

...an hour later scream-fest commenced.

Every 10-20 mins until 10pm. Gave another bf(only took a small one) then slept until 12.30am (but I couldn't )then had a big bf. Won't bore you with too much detail, but basically managed till just gone 2am when had a mini wakening. Then it was pretty much hourly. including a big awakening at 3.30 when I heard him doing a poo so did quiet quick change.

Got up at 7 - tried to put down for a nap at about 8.45 (yawning, bit of eye rubbing, in the 'old' days would nap ~1.5hrs after waking. Managed 10mins. However did another poo....

DH said he'd tag team it with me tonight (have a spare room) - not sure how that's going to work tho...

Oh gosh snuggles you must be exhausted!

He is in the room with you isn't he? So he is not screaming because you are not there.. do you think it is his teeth? Or maybe food? I found on the nights that I gave DD a big meal at teatime she is really unsettled, often waking screaming, so have started giving her biggest meal at lunch and more of a snack for tea a bit earlier on..

As predicted madam didn't sleep as well last night! Woke at 11, 2 and 5 - fed each time and went straight back though and finally woke at 7 so that was actually manageable. Managed to get her down for her nap this morning - fell asleep at 9 after bf, hand on chest shushing and is still asleep!!!! Miraculous

So far we have only managed 2hr nap without car seat on very odd occasion although I found that if I went into the room after about 30/40mins, waited for her to stir and then shushed/patted she would go over into another sleep cycle and usually stay down for another 45mins or so.
Have been really lax about actually doing that as kept missing the stirring due to doing other things and then she would be too awake but I think I will make the effort this week...

Will your DS sleep in the pram for naps?

I think you might have a point there with the food. I was suspecting that it might be a factor (though not the only thing)and each time I've tried to get him to nap today he's woken, spark-up-eyes-alert, after 10-20mins... with a poo in his nappy

Just going to give him another bf then a ripe pear to munch on in a min - I need to eat something and he gets all worked up if he sees me eating and doesn't get anything!

At least an hour nap in the am is fab! Bet you got loads done - even if it was only a hot cup of tea and mn

Be interesting to see if she can go down for a nap easier later - and if she can do it again tomorrow

well the morning nap lasted an hour and a half in the end! Kept her up then for 3hrs til the next one by which point she was v tired and fell asleep bf...but woke up half hour later crying with a giant poo (lovely!) and I couldn't get her back down..
has been grizzly all afternoon and has now just fallen asleep in the pram...not good timing for bedtime!! Can't decide whether to wake her or let her sleep now...argh!!

hows your day gone?

The poo wake-ups are the worst. No chance of a resettle. I remember when DS was ~4 weeks old and I had a few nappy-changes without him waking up!!! God I never thought newborns would be easier!!!!!

At first horrific. He was so so so tired he was all glassy eyed and over smiley iyswim. Screached and squirmed when I tried to cuddle/rock him, or if I put him down on his back. Ended up calling my HV in tears .

Controversially (so it seems for mn) my HV is v lovely, and generally helpful - tho not needed much help until now. Anyway she (basically) advised just to bed down in dark room with him all aft and she's got one of her team who's 'the sleep expert' to call me tomoz am to visit. Will report back...

Pram doesn't work for us - he keeps trying to sit up and see what's going on. He finally went off at about 2.30, lying on sides on our bed bfing. He was rousing quite a bit with a cry, but he got some deep sleep in and I managed a couple of cat-naps. I sort-of woke him at just gone 5. Know what you mean about the wake-or-not conundrum!

Hope bedtime is a bit better for you...

Hi Snuggle, sorry for lack of reporting in, been running about like a maniac and time seems to have disappeared on me!

How was the sleep expert? Any helpful tips?

We had a day of really good napps today, followed the 2-3-4 layout perfectly and slept for an 1hr45 at lunchtime!
Was still a complete nightmare to put to bed though so didn't help on that front. Every night this week has been the same but a bit worse than usual in that its been full on screaming for quite a while..doesn't seem to be in pain though, just can't work it out!

Pram is starting to not work for us either which is alarming! Used to be a guarentee but now it can be up to half an hour before she drops off even if its naptime - think there is just too much going on.

How has sleep been the last couple of days?

Ah - ditto here. No worries pickles - I couldn't do anything myself yesterday as I was basically on nap patrol. He napped really well.... in the darkened bedroom on me. Cue me loosing a whole load of my day (40 mins around 9ish, 2.5hrs around 12ish then 20 mins around 4.45!!!) However made no diff with night, in fact was harder to put down. Tried same nap routine today - didn't work. Again all on me. Longest one was a really unsettled period from about 3.30 til 4.45 - he was very overtired. Going to try again tomorrow.

DS does the screaming thing too - but more with naps, only a couple of times with bedtime. I'm at my wits end!! Been on here quite a bit searching thro archives and found almost my exact situation - unfortunately no real solution
www.askmoxie.org/2005/12/qa_nighttime_sl.html
It's a good site tho - you prob already came across it.

Well sleep "expert" wasn't really - basically doled out leaflets and gave a sympathetic ear. I think a lot of NHS services are really for people who are, in the nicest possible way, not as self-motivated. You know - haven't checked out any of the books, read up on theory, been on boards etc. It's more of a global problem than she seemed to gather - kept on about bedtime routines and gradual withdrawl

I've got a friend coming round tomorrow to help me move stuff out of DS's bedroom to be, get the cot moved at the weekend and see if that makes any bloody difference at all - think I'll just be up and down the stairs and end up putting a matress on the floor in his room... Also going to attempt to start mixed milk feeding (i.e. bf&ff) to see if last feed being ff helps in any way. Desperation rules...

Hope things are better your end of things!

ah sounds like my health visitor..she kept on about gradual retreat and sitting in the room reading a book til they fall asleep - haven't quite figured out how to do that in the dark as yet!

Had a really good nap this morning, 1hr45! But lunchtime was disturbed and she only got another 20mins late avo and then despite being knackered took forever to settle..argh!

Have you tried giving him a bottle of expressed milk at bedtime? when dd was waking a lot I found it helped as could get more into her from the bottle...couldn't be bothered to express too regularly though!

Hope the moving into other room helps..

Hey pickles - sorry not posted recently, things getting steadily worse

Haven't moved into own room, don't think it'll help at mo. Think teething may be part of the puzzle and have started another thread in behaviour/development.

Is 2-3-4 working for your dd? Are bedtimes getting any better? Is she teething too?!