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Original poster

Leaving babies to cry..........

40 replies

fifitot · 22/04/2010 18:37

www.google.co.uk/url?q=www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/apr/21/leaving-baby-to-cry-brain-devel opment-damage&sa=X&ei=z4jQS76kKInr-QaC7rkz&ved=0CA4QzgQoADAB&usg=AFQjCNEXuNUt3IqFAKHl3B569mWDkKdLtg

Apols if posted elsewhere - thought it interesting.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 22/04/2010 18:38
bippyhippy · 22/04/2010 21:02

Do you think this is true? What about if you're so sleep deprived that you're snappy with your baby all of the time (I have been there!) - Does that damage a baby's brain?

I read this - The difference between controlled crying and cry it out which made me feel better for having done controlled crying.

But having read this article I now feel terrible.

Original poster
fifitot · 22/04/2010 21:05

Who knows if it's true. I hope she quotes her scientific sources in the book if so. I had heard about the Cortisol argument before.

I think her point is about leaving very young babies to cry and isn't that the case regarding controlled crying that you are supposed to do it when they are 6 months at least. I can't imagine why anyone would want to leave a baby younger than this to cry in any event. Not sure what GF et al suggest in their routine based books.

OP posts:
nickytwotimes · 22/04/2010 21:05

I left ds to cry from time to time.
It was that or descend further into PND, which I am sure would've doen him a great deal more harm.
There is evidence supporting any argument you wish to make wrt babies adn crying.

Original poster
fifitot · 22/04/2010 21:08

My reading of the article is that she is against trying to introduce a routine very early on that involves leaving them to cry in early infancy. Don't think she is suggesting that leaving them to cry occasionally to preserve your sanity is having lasting damage. Just think she is giving a counter argument to the routine queens.

OP posts:
bippyhippy · 23/04/2010 11:10

Yeah. I think it's all just about common sense really isn't it? Infants need us when they cry, poor little mites, but as they get older, babies can be left a little longer. I didn't do controlled crying until my baby was 7 months and it was short lived as it worked quickly.

Still though, when they come out with new scientific research, it makes you think, doesn't it?

lovingmy2 · 23/04/2010 15:14

My DD is nearly 6 months and i did the controlled crying last week. It was one night and not needed to do since (thankgod)since then she is going down for half 6 and has a little chat and gurgle then goes to sleep. She is far happier because she is getting the sleep she needs to develop(which is when most of their growing and brain development occurs).

Personally i would think if babies aren't getting the 14hrs required sleep then over months/years this has surely got to have a negative impact on their development an wellbeing as oppse to doing thecontrolled crying method for a couple of nights to teach your infant to fall asleep on their own.

I had to do it with DS at 12months old as i used to rock hm to sleep in my arms and was starting nursery so had to learn to go to sleep on his own. Again it only tok him a couple of nights to figure it out and at 5yrs is still a 7pm - 6:30am sleeper.

bintofbohemia · 23/04/2010 15:19

She was on GMTV yesterday talking about this but I only caught the last 2 mins.

StealthPolarBear · 23/04/2010 15:26

yes, there is a difference between leaving a baby to cry routinely anfd getting so desperate you do it because you've tried everything else.
I've never been able to leave my babies to cry at all, but i visited a family member with a dd the same age as mine the other day. She put her in the cot and came down. We heard wingeing & grumbling on the monitor for about 10 mins. When that got louder and it became clear she wasn't grumbling to sleep, my friend went to get her. I started to think maybe i could do something like that after all

jesk · 23/04/2010 16:21

Thank goodness the science has backed up maternal instinct (not that most of us needed it) and Penelope Leach has now proved that leaving babies to cry is damaging.

Can we now see an end to the horrible Contented Little Baby Books and the marketing force that is ruthless businesswoman Gina Ford once and for all?

APassionateWoman · 23/04/2010 16:24

I'd err on penelope Leach's side if the debate, but to be honest, I detest the way both she and the one who cannot be named (and dozens of other parenting 'gurus') are cynically trying to make wonga out of fragile new parents.

In RL, it's a bit of both for most people, isn't it? You try not to let a small baby cry, but sometimes...urrr....you do

APassionateWoman · 23/04/2010 16:25

excuse awful typos

thisisyesterday · 23/04/2010 16:28

i think the problem comes from leaving a baby regularly and in particular leaving them alone

apparently studies have shown that cortisol levels are lower in babies who are touched a lot. so if you have a baby who just cries a LOT anywahy, but you comfort him as much as possible then it's unlikely to be an issue.

and of course sometimes we can't tend to our babies as quickly as we'd like to, but the odd few minutes crying isn't problematic

it's when babies are regularly left by themselves crying that it becomes an issue as far as i'm aware. so truby-king and all that- leaving them to cry down the garden for a few hours every day

45nanny · 23/04/2010 16:30

heard a great story yesterday , whilst viting a friend and her newborn(2weeks old ) . The mother in law told the new mother that if she left her son to cry for any amount of time she risked him bursting his testicles .

StealthPolarBear · 23/04/2010 16:31

yes, i agree
after all most of us have hade the odd car journey with a screamer in the back. or a shower looking at a little red face
My car journey was from leeds airport to teesside - that was hell

Fliight · 23/04/2010 16:52

Stealth, I can see where you are coming from re the monitor. But the whingy, little whispery 'I need you' noises usually mean a baby needs you...and the quicker you respond to THOSE, the less the baby will cry.

Speaking from experience - ds2 cried exactly twice in the first 6 months of his life. Twice. Seriously! And I'm not showing off because truthfully I am a shite parent in lots of ways, especially with ds1! But with ds2 I had learned the sound of 'I need you' and went to him every time, as soon as I could (yes, very little in the way of other demands, which was sheer luck) and it didn't progress into crying.

Just two times, and those were times I carried him around but he couldn't be comforted, which may have been wind or whatever...some kind of distress.

After 6 months, he started getting teeth and it all went tits up but the absolute KEY to it I feel is listening to their little noises, their moans and whispers and grunts, and responding to those as soon as possible.

That is how they learn to wait. Someone will come, they know it. Each time you come before they are desperate, they grow in confidence.
Conversely every time they have these little signals ignored until it becomes a cry, they lessen in confidence, thus crying sooner the next time, in anticipation of being forgottoen/made to wait.

Hope this makes sense. It certainly does to me.

Fliight · 23/04/2010 16:55

...and I totally agree with Penelope Leach...it's been known for years that it damages their development, and that they learn to sleep in this way by giving up, not by 'self comforting' etc. Those are just platitudes rolled out in order to assuage the guilt of parents who are so desperate for their kid to sleep they are willing to take the risk.

These are not BAD parents and the last thing they want is to hurt or damage their child - so it's really inportant they have this knowledge, so they can choose not to do CC, CIO etc.

I am talking very small babies here - after about a year it's a very different kettle of fish. But you do not mess with a few month old baby's only means of communicating. You just would be foolish to try and do so.

thisisyesterday · 23/04/2010 18:20

agree Flight, crying is a small babies last resort. they've normally been showing lots of other cues that they need feeding/holding/whatever long before they actually start crying.

stealth, that reminds me of an awful journey we had with ds2. Brighton-crawley, approx 40 mins from centre of brighton to our house and he screamed the entire way. I stopped twice and tried to feed/comfort him but as soon as he was back in the seat he just screamed even more. I soon figured out that actually the way forward was doing as few car journeys as possible, and when i did have to do them doing them as quick as possible!!!

RubyBuckleberry · 23/04/2010 19:24

i absolutely agree with Penelope Leach - the things she says in that article make complete sense imo. there was a woman on the radio whose baby cried for 5 hours. i don't know if it was CIO or CC but fgs!

roslily · 23/04/2010 22:51

There does have to be distinction between leaving them to cry constantly, and them being alone, with them crying while you try to comfort. My ds spent most of first 3 months crying. I never left him, was so scared to leave him that I used go to loo holding him in early days!

Anyway, now I get to him as soon as I can. He often cries when put to sleep as he is so tired. I don't pick him up as this makes him madder- but I do stay in room and talk to him.

I think CC when older is very different to leaving small baby.

interestingly ds is now an incredibly chilled out 7month old, especially compared to other babies who were left to cry more. one baby I know definitely goes straight to all out scream.

paisleyleaf · 23/04/2010 23:18

The article makes sense. We know that real emotional neglect can have an effect on the brain. I guess similar to Greenmonkey's thread a while back - it's where is the line?

I think this bit ..... "differences in child care do not make nearly as much difference as we expected them to. What makes more difference is the carer's responsiveness." " makes perfect sense too.
It's not who is looking after the baby (mum/nursery/nanny/cm), what's important is that there is someone responding to the baby.

hellymelly · 23/04/2010 23:21

I agree with this.I hate controlled crying,why would anyone not go to a crying baby? I just don't get it.If you want a full night's sleep don't get pregnant.(I have PMT btw)

Fliight · 24/04/2010 06:28

Yes and also the idea of leaving them occasionally when it's unavoidable (say in the car when you literally can't stop, have no choice etc - I've stopped on short journeys before just to try and stop the crying, only to have it resume after a 10 minute cuddle break, as soon as I started driving again!) and doing it deliberately in a bid to get them to 'learn to sleep'.

In fact I have rarely heard any concept as ridiculous as teaching a baby to sleep by itself by leaving it to cry.

RubyBuckleberry · 24/04/2010 06:33

'In fact I have rarely heard any concept as ridiculous as teaching a baby to sleep by itself by leaving it to cry.'

exactly

sweetkitty · 24/04/2010 07:31

Totally agree Ruby.

I hate the "oh you are spoiling them picking them up at every cry" about a baby a few days old "they need to cry it strengthens their lungs" "they need to be taught that crying doesn't do anything for them"

It is this thing that comforting and nurturing our babies is a bad thing. There is almost a proudness in who can bring their baby home from the hospital, stick them in their own room from day 1, get them sleeping through the night at a few weeks, stick a dummy in every time they cry, almost a kind of detachment from them.

I don't often tell people that my babies sleep in with me for a year, feed on demand etc several times through the night, I am due a baby in less than 2 weeks, I don't expect him to sleep more than 2-3 hours in his first year, I expect to cosleep and BF him if he wakes. People think I am mad when I tell them this "there is no way I could sleep with mine, in his own room straight off", then there is this obsession with dropping night feeds.

I know we all parent differently and some people cannot sleep with a newborn beside them and for them sleep is the most important thing and that's fine but some of us just don't agree.