I think we need to retrain DS1 to sleep - but how?

[sleepychunky]

Can't decide whether to post long or short version - I've been awake since 3.20 and not sure if I've got the energy. Will try to be brief(ish) in the hope that I get some suggestions!
DS1 is nearly 3. From 6 months old until last November he was a perfect sleeper - 12 hours at night, every night unless there was something wrong with him.
We moved him from his cot bed into a new bedroom and standard single bed in November before the arrival of DS2. We had a few problems to start with but after a couple of weeks he wasn't too bad and generally went to sleep by himself and stayed asleep all night.
Over the months since DS2 arrived (he's nearly 5 months now), DS1 has got worse and I know that the way DH and I have been dealing with it probably isn't the best for all of us.
At bedtime now we try to follow the same routine of bath/shower, then a couple of stories before we try and leave the room. He is instantly out of his bed and opening his door (we have a stairgate across so he can't actually leave his room). We put him back and tell him it's time to sleep, stay in bed now and don't open the door etc. but inevitably within a minute or two he's out again.
Unless he's absolutely exhausted this can carry on for hours. When DH is at home (he works shifts so quite often it's just me), he gets increasingly cross with DS, making threats to take away favourite toys, DVDs etc. but then will eventually go in to DS's room and lie on the bed with him until he's asleep.
In the night DS often gets out of bed for no reason (2 or 3 times on average) and will not go back to sleep again unless somebody is there. I can get away with leaving him sometimes if I tell him I have to go and sort out DS2, but if DH is home then he normally ends up going in and sleeping with him.
I have been against DH sleeping in the same bed as DS ever since this started as I didn't want this dependency to start, but I'm going back to work after mat leave in 7 weeks and, what with already having to get up in the night to feed DS2 (who is a brilliant sleeper for his age) really don't want this to continue. I don't think it's good for DS as he is now only associating sleep with somebody being there, and it's not good for DH and I, who disagree about the approach to take with him which is causing frequent arguments as we both get fed up with it.
I could go on but want to try and get some ideas on how to start getting DS to stay in bed and go to sleep by himself. It was so much easier when he was in the cotbed and couldn't get out, but DS2 is in there now so we can't go back to that.
I'll give you more history if you want, but can anyone give any advice?
Hope that some other early birds are up and reading this - if not I'll repost a bit later.
TIA

When he was in the cot bed, was he in his own bedroom (like now) or in your room?
Does the baby sleep in your room? could he feel pushed out?

We have co slept with all our Dcs so I am very bad at giving advice about children sleeping independently but if it is any consolation, they all started to really sleep through the night in their own bed when they started nursery (3+ ish) but they do share a Bedroom so maybe that makes the difference.

I used to try (and it did try all my patience) the supernanny technique to get our DD to stay in her room - my DH also didn't have much patience with it because it takes time the first couple of nights (first time he comes out, take him by the hand, tell him 'it's bedtime darling' - or whatever endearment you choose - and lead him back to bed; second time you take him by the hand and say 'it's bedtime' and lead him back to bed; third and all subsequent times, you just lead him back to bed, don't speak and don't make eye contact.)

It's tough, took my DD (who hadn't developed a major problem, but just got over the novelty of being in a big girl bed) over 2 hours and 40+ times up the stairs one night; but it did stop....

Problem is, as understandable as it is, your DH has shown him he can win, because after the threats, the loss of patience, he gives in and lies on the bed - which probably will make it that bit harder the first night or 2 when you start whatever you choose to do.

Good luck, I know it's tough, my DD slept for 18 months and hasn't really since then (2 years ago!), she will go to sleep now but wakes in the night, but she's excellent at going to bed and staying there!!

Hi both,

He was in his own bedroom before and the baby is in his own room too, so I don't think he feels pushed out, and he's never mentioned wanting to be back in his old room.
squishy I've tried supernanny - that's what we did when we first moved him in there and it works. What happens now is that he gets out of bed and opens the door, then after a minute throws his dummy and muslin over the stairgate (where he can't reach it so knows we'll have to come up), then screams hysterically when we come in, shouting "don't hurt me don't hurt me" (obviously we aren't hurting him at all, just gently carrying him back to bed). When we don't speak or look at him he's out of bed again before we've even left the room and gets completely hysterical, and it worries me that he's going to wake up DS2 so then I'll have 2 to deal with.
We might try sticker chart again - we did that back in November and it worked quite well, but not sure he really grasps the concept. Maybe now we're a few months down the line he will get the hang of it...

That sounds difficult for you and I understand the issue about being concerned that he may wake DS2.

Could you try the tough love with the dummy and muslin - at nearly 3 I'm sure he'd understand the concept of (at bedtime) "don't throw your dummy over the gate because you get upset and we won't give it back to you"?

We found sticker charts very effective around that age and then, even with the smallest achievement (and you may have to break it down), she loved loads of praise, cuddles etc with the sticker and a small mini reward as surprise from time to time.

Do you talk to him about it in the calm light of day? Ask him why he does it; explain what you want him to do and how proud and pleased it would make you?

Back to the original, you know the supernanny works with him, the dummy/muslin issue is about power and so's the screaming - if it wasn't for DS2, I'd say let him do it so he knows he doesn't have all the control, but not sure what to say about your second son.

The only other thing I'd say is, once you have a strategy, you both need to stick to it and if you plan to give in to something, discuss and then explain why (we used to do this with teenagers we worked with, it gets back some of the control, but has limited success with younger children)......good luck, keep us posted

aaargh - just re-read your OP, it may sound daft but could he just be traumatised/unsettled since the arrival of DS2 and this is his way of acting out? Just a thought as it does seem to be a clear trigger and he may be feeling the strain of sharing your love - you didn't say if he's in nursery etc...just a thought as attachment anxiety manifests itself in a range of ways and maybe he's just a little insecure and is getting the attention in a different (undesirable) way?

ok so suggesting something different.

Don't close his door and take away the stair gate at his door.

do it during the day and tell him that you know he is a big boy and can be trusted to stay in bed without them.

then do gradual withdrawl for a couple of nights.

same routine as normal, but after the stories, take a few steps away from the bed and sit on the floor - it will feel like an eternity but sit there for 2 minutes.

then move to the door and sit there for 2 minutes from the sounds of things he won't get out of bed until you are gone anyway but you are giving him time to settle without you being in or on his bed. But you haven't gone either.

then sit outside the door but within sight for 2 minutes.
then out of sight but within earshot. for 2 minutes

so far it has taken 10 minutes by now he will be relaxed and calm and not have anything to fight against.

if he gets out of bed go back a stage but not to the beginning. so perhaps back to the door frame and sit for 2 minutes, you are just there you haven't abandoned him. You aren't cross with him.

FWIW with DS1 I was able to do controlled crying, he slept really well really early but it breaks my heart to think that is because we taught him that we wouldn't come if he cried.
With DS2 I just couldn't do it, so we did the above method and although it took longer it was much easier to do and less heart breaking.

Good Luck!!

Ooh thanks for the extra suggestions since I last looked! We have gone with the sticker chart tonight and he went to sleep without getting out of bed at all. He was very tired from his day at the childminder, but nobody stayed with him so that's great. I'm really pleased that he can have a sticker in the morning as it will give him something tangible to see and that we can discuss.

dummy & muslin - I know, I know he needs to get rid of them v.soon - we are working on the idea with him that when he is 3 he is a big boy and doesn't need them any more so the dummy fairy is coming.

Will give the sticker chart a go for a while and it might just remind him of how nice it is to stay in bed and get sleep...

Yes and huge praise, cuddles and quality time - can you bake cakes together or something else he loves to reward him for last night (so he has more incentive tonight!)?

I also did that phased moving away when she went through a 'panic' phase about being on her own - was successful there, so also worth a try!

DD is 3 and a half and she still has her muslin but she only has it in bed and if she's really really tired/distressed - she used to carry it everywhere! She also had her bottle as a comforter until her 3rd birthday, but then she wanted to do ballet and we explained that only big girls could do ballet and they don't have bottles - it was given up overnight!

Hope you have another good night tonight!

how did you get on last night?

which ever way you do things it takes time and strength, I hope you and your DH are managing to support each other.

and hope that you are having a better time.

Hey, I wouldn't worry about the dummy and muslin until he's sleeping through! Get the sleep fairy to come and take it away when he's sleeping at night and the baby is and you're not exhausted!

As long as he loses the dummy before he's four, you're fine!