Really desperate about frequent waking 19wk old

[missymum]

Hi really at the end of my tether with dd2 who is fully breastfed. Was a dream newborn who did 4 hrly stretches of nightime sleep from newborn till 8 weeks of age, could hardly believe my luck as such a contrast to dd1 who was a terrible sleeper, but with dd2 she has had a lot of colds since 8 weeks old and since 12 weeks has been waking 2 hrly or more and won't settle without a feed. A typical night after going down semi awake at 7pm , would involve wakings at 930, 1230 230 430,6, 645.
I simply cannot sustain this any longer, tonight after trying to settle her at 9 without feeding using pat shh was terrible, she screamed for almost an hour with no let up untill I gave in. She isn't hungry am pretty sure, and co sleeping which I often do part way through the night is making the situ worse as she often wakes hrly then and I am so uncomfortable.
I also don't think it's the four month growth spurt as she often falls asleep at the boob with very little drinking during at least half of those wakings..
Today I was so tired I almost fell asleep driving which terrified me, and made me realise I have to do something, and rang my hv. She suggested getting dh to go to her and do pick up put down every other 2 hrs thro the night to teach her to do 4 hr stretches again and she felt that the two hrly waking was unlikely to improve on it's own due to it being habitual waking due to all the illness.
Am worried about doing pupd and all the crying involved, if because how can a baby know when 4 hrs have passes rather than 2? Am so confused but officially desperate too.
Dh works long hrs and am concerned as am so emotional and ratty with dd1 as just dog tired, has anyone else been thro similar ? Any words of wisdom?

only words of wisdom i can offer is that it DOES pass.

and that it's easier to change your own habits than those of a tiny baby. like you say, she has no idea what time it is, or how much time has passed since her last feed. she is also not just feeding for the milk, but for the comfort and security that YOU give her- that's an important need too

when ds2 was small he woke every 45-90 mins. it was hell. i really do feel for you because sleep deprivation is hideous.

but rather than try and change him i tried to help myself get more sleep instead. so i went to bed at 8pm. I had dp take him and his brother downstairs in the morning so i could get a bit more sleep (even just half an hour or so was appreciated)
I called in family and friends who could look after ds1 some afternoons, or take him to the park for an hour or so while I napped with ds2

it seemed to last forever, but looking back it was such a short space of time. I kind of miss being needed so much now!

Oh, poor you. DS isn't quite so bad, and at 6 mo I'm beginning to see signs of improvement - we're helping him learn to self-settle using ideas from the No Cry Sleep Solution. Might help you to gradually reduce her reliance on suckling to sleep, but it's a slowish process.

Thankyou. I feel worried that it won't pass though! If the frequent waking habitual I mean. I know it's a short time overall, but it's really affecting the rest of the family too as I am only just functioning . Is it wrong to try to settle her without feeding at this age? Am so torn, I guess I feel I need a plan to get through it, I do get the occasional nap at weekend but not rest of time due to dd1..... Yawn!

i dunno, you have to do what you think is absolutely best.
i think if she is inconsolable for an hour without feeding then she probably is hungry, or just not ready to be able to settle by herself.

they change so much in the early weeks that I don't think i'd be convinced that it was just habit. I would expect a breastfed baby of her age to still be having a few night feeds anyway tbh...

I'd have a read of NCSS, then - it's really gentle, and perhaps just having a plan would help you feel a bit more functional - I know that's how it works for me, anyway.

and yes i agree with reading the NCSS, we used it when ds2 was about 10 months and it did help.

i found it easier to deal with once i'd accepted that this was how he was! (probably doesn't work for everyone though lol)

Yes, acceptance does help - my thing with ds is that I didn't mind him night feeding, just not All The Time... Funny how you crave just 3 hours straight, when that would have felt like torture pre-children.

Oh, 19 weeks is awful, it's part of the 4-5 month shakeup. It does pass. The 4 month shakeup isn't a growth spurt, it's one of those bits where their mental development spurts ahead so she might not need more food, but just can't sleep because her brain is fizzing.

(Um, not a technical term)

Can your husband take the kids for a chunk of the weekends so you can have a long nap? And I agree about going to bed early. If your husband isn't doing a job that requires dangerous heavy machinery I'd also be expecting that he does at least one night wakeup just while this awful patch persists. One wake up a night won't kill him, and it'll make all the difference to your wellbeing to have a 4 hour stretch instead of 2x2 hour stretches. I say this as the breadwinner who still does wakeups.

Definitely growth spurt and development.

I do understand about getting to a position of acceptance as with my dd1 it got easier when I got to that point... I have copy of NCss, will dig back out, thanks, am already in bed before 9 most nights, but her first wake is often around 9. Some nights I lie there unable to sleep as feel so anxious about how soon she might wake... Dh would do a night wake up but not sure how as not sure she would be console able without a feed.this is why am doubting the hv advice.
Oh, and whilst am feeling sorry for myself, did I mention it's a terrible battle to get her to nap in the cot during day and if I do manage it it entails lots of crying which I cannot bear, but I aslso cannot subject dd1 to un necessary car journeys or pushchair walks and so poor dd2 never gets a propEr routine ....arrgh!

Thisisyesterday I agree that I think she simply not ready, not sure about Needing all the feeds though as she barely fed tonight at 2 and 4, now properly feeding at 5. Happy to feed her at night just not 2 hrly.
Thanks all for responses so far it really helps.

missymum, i am doing lying down cosleeping feeds which mean i am not dead even tho i fed my nearly 10m DD oh about 7-8 x last night, have u tried that? i barely wake to feed her. also am starting ncss but i struggle to apply it when i dreamfeed as well as her dreamfeeding

Has she ever taken a bottle of expressed milk? Could DH do that once a night? I appreciate it's difficult when he works long hours, but if you're struggling that much, you need help, even if it's just for a while.

I would also second what tiredpooky says - feeding lying down definitely helps if you can do it - I never expected to be able to sleep through feeds, but I did manage to doze lots and catch up on sleep a bit that way when I did it for a while when DS was waking lots.

And the No-Cry Sleep Solution does have some good ideas for reducing frequent night-time waking (although they will take a while to implement).

Thanks all, it helps alot to read your messages.

Habbibu, u could be me with what you said about not minding night feeding but just craving a 3hr stretch!

Tiredpooky- yes I co sleep half the night and always feed lying down, but i would like to move away from doing this as I find it encourages sometimes hrly wakings, I find it more and more uncomfortable too as I carry her lots in a sling as it is and the combo of this and co sleeping is taking it's toll on me physically, I think I just want a little bit of space at night , am carrying on for now but not through choice!

Angeldog- yes she does occasionally take a bottle of ebm although I have been a bit slack with the expressing of late

when it comes down to it I think i have got a bit obsessed about the fact that she wakes 2 hrly and that is wrong, and that it is down to me to sort it somehow, which I am realising is not realistic, especially AS I won't let her cry..... I think I have become obsessed with sleep and also desperate to get a bit of an evening back. But because it has continued for so many weeks now, am losing faith that she will go back to doing longer stretches again.
sorry for typos, doing this on iPod in dark during feeds!

Missy, when I read your post about trying to fit in yoru 2 dcs, I thought "that could be me"! fwiw, we have a plan now that is showing some signs of improvement. ds's bedtime takes priority at night - bath, then I take him to bed while dh deals with dd. Feed until he stops - if he's still awake enough I read a story, and then put him down with music and endless patting - if he cries, very quick double-patting with both hands seems to help. If he cries a lot he gets picked up, cuddled, fed, whatever, and start again.

If he's falling asleep feeding I do the NCSS thing of taking him off the second he stops doing big sucks, and put him down, just so he's that little bit aware he's going to bed, plus patting, music etc, even if I think he's conked.

Did that and carried on feeding whenever for a week or so, and when he started to show signs of responding to patting - relaxing more quickly, not really fighting it, we implemented the phase we're in now, where I'm trying not to feed between 12 and 3- until 12 I feed if he wants to (though now just try cuddling and patting), try to feed at the nearest waking to 12, and then try to settle him with cuddles, singing, etc between 12 and 3. After 3 if he wakes I co-sleep with him.

It's working a bit - really, really early days, and a bad cough gave us a huge setback, but I feel better having a plan, and I think this improved calmness is transmitting to ds. What I have noticed is that the bedtime routine is definitely helping get him down for naps more easily - if I act the second he rubs his eyes, feed, bed pat sing (usually outside in pram now), he's much easier to settle.

But who knows? I have a theory, which I have repeated many times here, that much of whatr we do to change our children's behaviour as parents is stuff to keepp us busy while they grow out of it...

And on cue, he wakes. Bugger.

Well, that was interesting - went up, picked him up - he'd fallen asleep quickly feeding at bedtime, so reckoned he could be hungry, but he didn't want to know. Put him down, did music, singing, patting, and he dropped off again. As I recall, this happened last night too. Hmm.

Habbibu- it sounds like you are making some progress there! It's such a slog isn't it? I hate wishing the time away over the sleep issue cos she is so utterly gorgeous and definately my last dc( weeps) but am just desperate for better nights now. Your routine is v similar to mine at bedtime, I have been doing shh patt since 10 weeks with a lot of success at 7pm after a feed but I rarely try it or find it works after that time .love your theory too! I will read anything about sleep at the mo which is not really helping but yes it's keeping me busy!

with my DS i just tried to train him for one 4 hour sleep period then let it go the rest of the night.

since he was such a good sleeper earlier in the night i went for the first stretch from 7.30pm.

i wated in his room close to the time he would wake and when i saw his stirring i would shush pat and get him back off to sleep. after a while he would gradualy do this 4 hours on his own. then he managed to lengthen the time asleep.

don't try to make to many changes at once. just pick one block that you can try.

Moocowme- how old was your dc when you did that?

Awful night here, couldn't settle her in cot after 10 then she was full of wind all night and squirming and pulling on the boob trying to poo at every feed which was 10, 12, 140,3,450-540wide awake then up at 7. What fresh he'll is this!

Missymum, your poor soul! My DS is a similar age and I too have been in touch with the HV regarding getting more than 2 hours sleep on the trot.

She explained (and I haven't checked this out) that human sleep cycles are 2-3 hours and that if things have changed when we enter a period of lighter sleep, we wake up. This is when you notice that a light has been left on, or the smoke alarm is beeping or whatever, even as an adult. So, if baby falls asleep at the breast, and it's not there a couple of hours later, they are likely to wake up and yell for it. We are now following a similar plan to Habbibu, putting DS in his cot awake(ish), establishing bedtime riturals, and like she says, it's good to have a plan!

Last night was the first of the new regime, so not much to go on, but he only woke 10.30, 2.50 and 6.25! Bit of fuss getting him back down the first 2 times but I hope that will improve.

I hope this helps and you have a better night tonight.

Forgot to say that last night I also put a muslin smelling of me in the cot with him. Don't know if that was a factor, but might be worth a go.

Hi blue champagne, it's good to know am not alone!
Yes I also have a bedtime routine and 8 out of 10 nights I do manage to put dd2 down awake or semi awake at 7pm, have yet to manage it during the night though. I will give the muslin a go, as I will try anything if it helps!

How did last night go? We had midnight, 3.30 and 6.15 ( at which point he came in with us for early breakfast). Off to stay with grandparents tonight so hope that doesn't ruin it all!