3 year old, broken sleep pattern - help please!

[squishy]

Our DD is 3 years and 5 months. For the last 2 years, pretty much every night, she goes to sleep really well and then wakes (between 1 and 3am) and plays for between 1 and 4 hours (last night, she was up from 2-6 and then slept until 11.30am this morning).

On average, she gets less than 10 hours sleep a night, I know that's too little for her age. That's the reason DH didn't wake her this morning, because she didn't settle until after 9 last night and so had very little sleep.

We've spoken to HVs who, for the most, were useless and said she'd grow out of it around age 3. Then we had someone who took an interest in us, came out to see us (first visit in over 3 years!) and told us to focus, not on her not sleeping, but on her not waking us.

We got to a phase where she slept for 5 consecutive nights (first time in 2 years) and then became ill, which threw her pattern and she is now back to playing, although not generally coming out of her room and into ours (although the noise from the play is often so loud that it wakes us).

My GP said her DD didn't sleep until over 5 years old and I know others' whose children have been a lot later than that.

I'm not sure we (as a couple or as individuals) can take much more of it, she is a happy, intelligent and healthy child; she has a good bedtime routine, cuddles, light out and goes to sleep in her own bed (not always immediately, but most of the time within 15 mins, after some play and will settle herself). We've never had her in our bed and she rarely (I can't remember the last time) asks to come in with us. She no longer sleeps during the day (for over a year) apart from the usual nap if really really exerted/tired, maybe once a month.

If anyone has got any suggestions, or advice, I would really really appreciate it. I am suffering from depression, DH is as well (not because of this, but it doesn't help) and (for other reasons) our relationship is on rocky grounds, we're trying to save it (and are positive and determined we will) but this all really doesn't help......

TIA, I hope!!

if you want her to sleep in the night then you cant really let her sleep till 11.30am as you then dont have enough wake time before it is time for bed again. DS is around the same age and is up around 6.45/7am and is in bed around 7.30/7.40pm. If he stays up later he still wakes at the same time in the morning and therefore loses out on sleep. Some lo's need less sleep than others and the average requirements for this age are 10-12 hours per day.

Fair point, but today was just what I consider to be the-straw-that-breaks-the-camels-back-illustration....normally, she goes to bed around 7, wakes at 1, goes back to sleep at 4 and gets up at 8am - these are approximates, although sometimes I do let her sleep until 9am because it just isn't right to let her function on 7-8 hours sleep, I think.

We've tried bringing her bedtime forwards, tried making it later etc etc.

My belief is that less than 11 hours, consistently (and for the last 2 years) is nowhere near enough sleep.

What is her behaviour/mood like when she has less sleep? If the lack of sleep does not affect her then maybe she doesnt need as much sleep as you think or want her to have.

Maybe, she just needs less sleep? I would get her up around 7-7.30am regularly, as it sounds as if the routine is a bit irregular, even if she has been up for a few hours in the night. I would also say to her when you put her to bed "tonight you must try and sleep all night in your bed without getting up". This works reasonably well with my DS1, who likes to climb into our bed at night. He says "Mummy, I'll try". Also, I would try and settle her immediately, lights off. Don't allow her to get up and play. Give her a reward in the morning if she manages it. I hope these ideas are useful.

Have you tried telling her it's not play time, it's sleep time and to go back to sleep? It usually works with our DS at 3yrs who now usually sleeps in until 8am (not convenient during the week, but lovely on the weekend). Alternately, you could ask your GP for a sedative to keep her asleep until her sleep pattern adapts. Your GP should be able to prescribe something safe.

When she has less sleep, she's cranky, unreasonable and emotional (a bit like me!). And on days when she's going to nursery, it feels so wrong to take her (but I often have) when she's had around 8 hours of broken sleep (I can get by on 7 hours or less, but when it's broken, feels like I need 10) because she just can't function all day. But it doesn't follow that she sleeps through the next night after a bad night/nursery day.

Every single night we say to her 'you must try and sleep through' and she always says she will try. Most mornings, she says 'mummy I slept through' and when I say she hasn't, she appears sad (she knows she gets lots of positive reinforcement when she does and often rewards!).

We don't allow her to turn on her lights, she plays in her room, mostly in (lying or sitting) her bed and talks to her imaginary friends - not just talks, sings, squeals, shouts.

We've tried being cross, telling her it's not play time, it's sleep time and that it's not OK to wake mummy and daddy (on HV advice) and although she accepted it wasn't OK to wake us, it didn't have much impact on the going back to sleep issue.

We don't want to sedate her because she normally has 5-6 hours sleep before she wakes anyway - I was coming around to that possibility as a last resort but DH is pretty anti-it. I've even tried saying (nicely) to DD that we need her to sleep through or mummy will need to see the doctor, which she doesn't want - but it doesn't have any impact.

Thanks for responses, though, am just bashing head against brick wall - can't do anything normal like stay at friends' houses etc and as for babysitters !!

Oh no, my DS1 has been like this on and off for the last year (he is 27months). He occasionally has good stretches, when he sleeps 8pm-6am but usually he wakes for 2-3 hours in the night. Unfortunately, since he's now in a bed he comes in to our room. What we find helps is if one of us then goes to his room and lies down (need a mattress on floor). He will then go back to sleep, but it does take an hour or so.

I know it's not great but at least we all get a bit more sleep that way, even if it is broken. I found the HV quite useless also. They haven't offered any real advice. DS1 has been surviving on only 8/9 hours sleep per night on average. The worst nights are when he hasn't napped or when we've been out all day or had too many activities. Does your DD still nap?

Please let me know if you find a way to help her sleep through without sedation.

Thanks for your message Suzi, it is dreadful, isn't it?! DD doesn't nap anymore and hasn't (most days) for about a year.

I tried that mattress trick while on holiday with her in October - and every time she kicked, tickled, tried to play with me, would just say "it's sleep time, go to sleep" - it didn't help plus she got so fed up with me, she pleaded me to go away (I didn't, but it didn't put her back to sleep - she doesn't ask me to stay in there anymore!).

Strangely, the last 2 nights, she has slept much better, last night, she woke and demanded milk (which she hasn't had in the night for so long, I'm amazed she still asks for, but it is less often!) and went back to sleep within 5 mins and the night before she was awake until 9pm and got up at 6.30 but we think she slept through (problem is, we're both so tired, we may be beginning to sleep through!).

She does, before I get too excited, have periods where she's so exhausted she sleeps to recoup for a night or 2 and then reverts to norm.

I'm taking advice from Effjay and going to wake her in 20 mins anyway to try and set ourselves up for tonight - I don't agree with the routine thing because her bedtime routine is 'textbook' (is there such a thing!!!) but anything is worth a try....!

So how are things going? We've had 5 nights of DS up for 2 hours, this morning he woke up at 7:15am so at least that's better than yesterday's 5:30am wake time!

Thanks Suzi, was about to post - we'd had 3 nights where she woke briefly but DH settled her and she was back asleep within 5 mins. Last night, she woke (DH was away!) at half 1, very distressed, settled her, thought she'd go back off, but 15 mins later, stil v. distressed - settled her. Then half an hour later she dragged her duvet into my room and said she couldn't sort it out (what rubbish) so stern words were had. I was so tired, I then went to sleep, to be woken at half 4 but what sounded like a full on party, then a row and then a slam of the door - she'd had a fight with her imaginary friend - more stern words and she really did go back to sleep but was up before 8 (quietly snuck down the stairs, took the ice cream out of the freezer and tucked into it with a spoon) - aaargh! Just as we think we're getting there!!!

7.15 much better than 5.30!!!

Still needing ideas if anyone reads this!!!

Squishy im getting this too 5 6 times a night im ill at te moment and feeling even more tired so the lack of sleep is killing me its no joke is it?
This morning for us it was 1am 3am and 5am and 6am!! My son said he needed a wee when i took him into the bathroom he wet all over himself deliberately its like he is trying to press my buttons all the time and then refuses to go back to bed,we use lavener oil a few drops on his pillow and it used to settle him for sleep but now hes (bing wide awake) at silly hours.