I am officially out of ideas. Can someone talk me through NCSS rapid return?

[robino]

DD2 is 20 months. Bedtime has never been easy. It's getting worse. I am getting less patient, she is getting more fraught. I need help. Pleeeeeeeeaaaaaaasssssssssssee?

When BF she fed to sleep. When we stopped at 10 months she was rocked to sleep. She is too big to rock. In the last two months we have managed to get her to lie down in her bed voluntarily which is something she would never do previously.

After this she started going to sleep quite quickly with us holdling her hand and singing. It very soon turned into 40 minutes and waking up the moment we attempted to leave. Then it hit an hour. Then we decided we couldn't hack it any more so tried CC. 6 nights in and she was still screaming for 30 mins.

Tonight she wouldn't even lie down. So I'm sitting next to her bed, typing while she screams. She's been going for half an hour now. I am completely at a loss as to what to do.

She CAN go to sleep. I had 4 nights when she was ill and in her brand new ready bed and she went to sleep like a dream. She has never repeated it.

I have to get her to go to sleep without too much input on an evening because her night times are a nightmare too and I don't think I've got a cat in hell's chance of sorting that if I don't sort actual going to sleep first. Am very tired and very fed up .

what is the rest of h er sleep like? do you think she gets enough? because overtiredness can make them harder to get off to sleep

does she sleep during the day? how is that?

i don't think rapid return will work unless she will lie happily in her bed. if she is just going to sit and scream then you aren't returning her, she's just crying! lol

i guess if it were me i would just do whatever works. is she still breastfed? will she feed to sleep if you let her? does she have a dummy or other comforter? will she fall asleep in the car?

HI robino. I am finally out the other side of all that and reading your post brought it all back. I dont know about the NCSS thing in detail, I think I ended up doing it over a very very extended period- feeding to sleep, patting to sleep, sitting next to her , sitting further away etc, but she was 4 months off 3 before we could kiss her in bed and walk out so I may not be the one you want to hear from.

What made the big push for us in the end was my husband who had been away for 4 months came home and was on leave and started to do the whole bed time routine (and getting up in the night to her- and miraculously that stopped too..) and I think it was the change that let us do the final push.

Just thinking out loud so sorry if a bit disjointed:
I am wondering if the CC not working has set her up for a negative bed time and maybe you could reset that. Is it too much of a step back to go back to hand holding for a few nights while it all calms down again? Is it you she wants at night- do you share the bed time? Have you tried a light on in the hall or a nightlight? White noise? Does she have a comforter- if not could you create one- something soft of yours perhaps? Is she over tired by the time you put her down- or undertired is it too early? Does she still nap? Have you tried dropping it if she does? (That made all the difference to us, I know for some people it works against them but if she even had a sniff of a nap after 18months she wouldnt sleep til gone 8).

I'm sure lots of people will come on with more advice but hang in there, it does end and yes it is as life changingly marvellous as you imagine when it does.

2 hour nap at lunchtime. Even with CC the latest she's been to sleep is 8 and she used to sleep til 7ish.

Unfortunately, because her night time sleep is not great and she started tantrumming for up to 3 hours when she woke up in the night so we've given in and she comes in with us at about midnight when she first wakes and that way we all sleep better. However, the moment OH gets out of bed in the morning at 5.45(even if we think she is sound asleep) she leaps out of bed screaming because daddy is leaving. So, no I don't think she's tired but even when she was getting more sleep she was the same.

Not still BF, won't feed to sleep. Has never taken a dummy but does have a blanket. Falls asleep like a dream in the car but not practical as poor DD1 also needs to sleep and I do bedtime on my own all through the week. Poor DD1 has been going through this chaos for over a year now and they share a room.

She has actually just fallen asleep half on me, half on bed whilst screaming...

Sorry thisisyesterday, thank you for the advice - was typing in the midst of the screaming so just giving bare bones answers.

Cathpot - as long as there is another side . Am definitely going to re-set bedtime after the disastrous CC. You know, I knew it wouldn't work but you just end up trying anything.

We use lights. We've tried the radio, story CDs but not specifically white noise; might be worth a try. She's just as bad for OH as she is for me, she's just come through one side of her screaming for daddy in the midde of the night and only re-settling on his tummy and now it's my turn.

She missed her nap on Monday and was just as bad as ever so I don't think she needs to drop her nap just yet. We've tried later bedtimes. And earlier

And I've managed to walk out without her waking. Which is an improvement. So I guess it's back to sitting by her bed until she drops off but I don't think I'm going to interact with her at all (seems to make her worse), just let her see that I'm there. Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey, eh?

Bloody hell. Just awake was bad, awake and screaming, v bad, you have all my sympathy. I also just took DD2 into bed when she was up at night against much well meaning advice (having refused to with DD1 and spent hellish hours sitting in the cold in her room or accidently falling asleep on the floor) - sometimes you just have to do what is best for getting through one day at a time.

What is she screaming about while you are sitting with her? Is she upset or cross or both? What would you have to do to remove the screaming bit? Lie down next to her? What saved my sanity in the end was a DS (as in computer rather than a son!) so I could lie with her and play on that and not feel as if my life was slipping away in the dark. I agree that the screaming part needs to be sorted first because I dont think you can edge gently away from her if she is throwing 3 kinds of fit. What is your bedtime routine by the way?

Sorry cross posts- yes slowly slowly and you will get there. I used to cheer myself up by thinking 'at least I dont have to feed her to sleep any more' or 'at least I dont have to endlessly sing any more' etc, sometimes its as well to remind yourself how far youve come (my low point leaning right over the cot in desperation bunging a boob in her mouth and basically breast feeding standing on my head).

She might be having nightmares at night? My dd1 had a bad phase of them about this age. I also tried - 'I'm just going to the loo and coming back' and nipping out for a few minutes to try and get her used to me popping out, but she was a bit older to be honest.

my ds2 used to come into bed with us when he wolke in the night too. really cramped now we have ds3 who ends up in with us while he feeds as well lol

anyway, he has just stopped doing it. just like that. he is 2 and a half now

i like to think that it's because he is secure in the knowledge that if he wants to come in he can, and that we are there. although it could also just be a fluke lol

i do think that you need to do whatever it takes to get her to sleep with minimum fuss tbh. and then like you say, just gradually withdraw.
I think when ds1 went through a phase a bit like this, tho not as severe, I used to sit with him and then say, mummy just neds a wee, i'll be rightback. then i'd go into bathroom, all the time calling to him to say i was still there and be back... and then go back to him.

then you make the time a little longer, and the period between calling to them a little longer, and maybe talk a little quieter... til you don';t have to go back

cathpot i used to do that too!!! in fact, i still quite often put ds3 down into the cot with boob still in mouth before unlatching him and patting and shushing him to sleep

Screaming - oh, I have no idea! Actually, I think she's just pissed off. Which is one of the reasons I didn't really want to give in to helping her to sleep again, especially after I saw her, 4 nights running, just lie down in bed and GO TO SLEEP. Honestly, if my mum hadn't also witnessed it (we were staying at her house) I would swear I had been hallucinating .

She did actually half lie down tonight but then I popped out to get the power cable for the laptop (telling her I'd be back in 30 seconds, and I was) by which time she was throwing a complete hissy fit and didn't calm down.

Bedtime routine roughly the same each night. Either gentle play with DD1 and DD2 or a bath. Get both ready for bed in bedroom. Story and milk. Teeth clean. Tuck DD1 up tight and give her 17 kisses WHILST cuddling DD2 who does a baby gibbon impression. Try to put DD2 in bed, usually fail. Sing a few songs. Poor DD1 just lies beautifully and falls asleep amid all the chaos. And then we try whatever method we're currently trying to get the demon child to go to sleep

Oh is so hard. No mileage in changing your bedtime routine is there, sounds just right.

I'm sorry not to be able to offer more practical advice, but I would probably wait her out- it wont be too long before she is old enough to respond to reasoning (and bribery), she may get less clingy generally ( dd2 was like boob obsessed limpet for a long time) and you should be able to make progress again. In the meantime in your position I would make life as stress free and scream free as possible and worry about weaning out of your bed etc later. In our case DD2's night time waking stopped as soon as she was going off to sleep on her own (or at least with us out of sight but in earshot in next room)- I presume she was still waking but self settling. My DH said to me once she started going off on her own (in tone of awe) 'some people's children do this from 6 months...' It must be a whole other experience. My DD1 was the same incidently and slept through on her own the first time aged 2.4, the night dd2 arrived. People wonder why asked if I will have a third I cackle slightly manically.

thisisyesterday- i am glad I am not the only breastfeeding handstander. I have a good friend who confessed she had to wave her startled dh out of the nursery as she tried to squeeze a boob through the cot bars..

I've also done the breastfeeding handstand!

You know - you'd think I was new to this but I'm not! We had to go slowly with DD1 and her sleeping through more regularly coincided with DD2 being born. It's just that DD2 is a bit more hardcore . And there's less than 18 months between them so I feel like I've been doing this for 3 years non-stop.

And I'm not particularly fussed about her being in bed with us - we are definitely at the stage where as long as we get some sleep we are happy, don't care how it happens. She was sleeping through at one point but that coincided with DD1's bad patch (She was coming in with us instead!). We had 4 nights of blissful sleep before DD2 kicked off...

Thank you for your support Cathpot and Thisis - it's sometimes nice to find out you're not the only one!

My first was a great sleeper too when ds came along that was a big shock believe me
He never got into a consistant good sleep pattern.

One thing I discovered worked was actually by total accident and I don't know if you have anyone you could try this out with.

Ex MIL was babysitting one night and for the first time was going to have to put the dc's to bed (ds must have been about the same age at the time as your dd2 is just now)and she put him to bed sang him a song kissed him goodnight and walked out the room and the little darling never made a peep.

I discovered in that moment that it was well and truly me he was taking advantage of as I had got into the routine of doing cartwheels to get him to sleep he needed it and expected it.

So after a few times of her babysitting and this happening she agreed to come over every night at bedtime for a while and put him to bed.
After a week I think it was she stopped coming to test and see if it had worked and bingo he went down for me easily for the first time I could remember.

We did have to repeat the process once more after an illness but since then we have had hardly any problems and ds is 4 this month and actually asks to go to bed now when he is tired.

Ooh, you poor thing OP!

Have you checked in case it's something in her diet that might be interfering with her ability to relax? A long shot perhaps, but might be worth thinking about. My sister's DS was a terrible sleeper in all sorts of ways, but magically improved when she stopped giving him cheese for his tea. Well, you never know!

Good luck...