4 wk old baby won't sleep

[Squarepig]

I don't know if this should go in Feeding or Sleep, so have started off here.

Our baby is 4 weeks old. He usually sleeps OK at night (feeding every 2-3 hours or so). He's not so good at sleeping in the day unless being walked round in his pram or in a sling, which I can live with, but just lately, he seems to be unable to settle for the first 'night' sleep, and I don't know what to do. Usually, he BFs till he's asleep, or nearly so, then I put him in his cot, and he goes to sleep without too much fuss (apart from a bit of scrawming and arm waving). However, for the last few nights, he's taken up to three hours to get to sleep in the evening.

He feeds, then comes off the breast and cries and cries. He seems to still be hungry but is too overwrought to latch on properly. I try soothing him by rocking, shushing and patting or stroking him, which works for a while, but whatever I do, he just won't feed properly, or go to sleep. I've tried winding him (he doesn't seem to be a very burpy baby, but you never know, although he does bring his milk up quite often). He sometimes almost goes to sleep, then wakes again. My husband has just taken him out in his pram which soothes him to sleep for a short while, although he wakes up once he's back in the house.

Sorry about the epic - I just feel a bit of a mess and a failure at the moment: I've always wanted a child and now I've got one I can't cope. I feel angry and awful that I can't help my baby. Can anyone suggest anything that might help, please?

sounds like he is cluster feeding

DD did this from around 2 weeks old so from 5 pm until 9 ish she just wanted to be on the boob

can you feed laying down so you are both in bed feeding and resting?

you aren't a failure - the first few weeks of breastfeeding can be incredibly intense and tiring

i was determined to feed DD but the cluster feeding was just so unexpected - i was close to giving up a few times but DD is now 17 weeks and things are much better

Squarepig - please don't think you are a failure!

I hope last night was better for you.

Please try to remember your baby is so very little and changes all the time. This may be a minor blip and will go back to feeding and sleeping normally soon.

If it is hunger, have you tried expressing and then offering it in a bottle after the breast to see if he takes any more?

It could be that he is really tired and so finds it a lot of effort to feed, and yet is hungry. Maybe try feeding him earlier, just before you think he is due a feed, so he is awake enough to take a full feed?

Please keep strong. Babies are hard work, especially breastfeeding! You are doing great and once you have this sorted, something else will be along to throw you off the track ;)

Squarepig - I agree with the previous posters: you are not a failure! Being a mum (and especially a first time one) is all about gradually getting to know and understand a little person who can only communicate with you in a 'foreign' language. It takes time to work out what they're trying to say. Although I know how frustrating it is when they are upset and you feel unable to help them.

My DS is 5.5 weeks. I found that at about 3-3.5 weeks he stopped falling asleep straight at the end of every feed. I think this is normal, and just because they can stay awake for longer at this point. It then took him 2 or 3 hours to go to sleep, during which time he would cry hysterically and fight all attempts to put him to sleep. If we did get him more or less off to sleep, putting him in the cot would immediately wake him up again. It sounds as if your DS could be similarly over-tired.

I do find that if he's over-tired, when he eventually does go to sleep, he doesn't sleep for long but wakes up crying again and needs to be settled back to sleep.

What we now do is watch him like a hawk for signs of tiredness (mainly yawning) and then swaddle him, hold him upright against the chest and pat his back whilst shushing loudly in his ear. (He's a windy baby so needs to be upright, but a 'cradle' type hold in your arms works well too.)

It takes a good half an hour or so for him to get drowsy and drop off, but it works most of the time. I read somewhere that the average baby takes 20 minutes to get to sleep.

We are working on a wake up - feed - awake time/play time - sleep system. Is your DS having awake time just before you feed him? It might be worth trying to shorten it if that's the case. Apparently many babies this age can only stay awake (without getting hysterically over-tired) for an hour to an hour and a quarter - and that includes feeding time. Although obviously all babies are different.

Have you tried a dummy? I know the recommendation is to wait until 6 weeks, but I've found that it is useful for calming DS down enough to feed or to be soothed to sleep. I now use it only when I'm desperate because he's over-tired.

It might be worth contacting your health visitor and ask them to get your local breastfeeding person to come and observe you feeding him. That would help you know whether the feeding, then coming off & crying is a problem with feeding, or something else (eg wind or over-tiredness).

I really hope things improve soon for you. I'm gradually getting the hang of the difference between a hungry cry and a tired cry and I'm sure you will do too soon.

Thank you loads for your replies. We saw the health visitor today, and his weight gain is fine, so he's obviously getting enough to eat. She suggested that my supply in the evening might be less, so he's getting frustrated and angry.

I do wonder if he gets overtired because he often doesn't get enough sleep in the day. He's had a few good sleeps today, so I'm hoping that tonight is better than last night (Mummy Squarepig kept thinking that she had a credit card and a passport, and Heathrow really wasn't all that far away...! The husband saved the day by bringing me chocolate though.) I'm going to try your various suggestions over the next few days, and hopefully come up with something that works. I know I have to remember that it's just early days really, and we're still all getting used to each other

It's easy to forget how tiny they are and how new we are to being mums, isn't it? It feels like we've had DS for years rather than weeks but as you say, it's early days yet for them and us.

My other top tip is to ignore the existence of mornings - I go back to bed every time DS falls asleep until about midday, which makes all the difference - I can get a reasonable (although broken) amount of sleep by simply not bothering to get up until I feel like it (or until DS next cries to be fed!)

Keep us posted!

Well, I decided that I was going to try and be less stressed about his not settling, and we're finding a way through, bit by bit.

He is still being very fussy in the evening, but I'm putting him in the sling more in the day instead of fighting to get him to nap in his cot, so he's sleeping more, which has helped reduce the fussy time in the evening. He's started doing a different cry at night, several short screamy cries for a minute or so, and he won't be comforted, but then dozes off right afterwards, then wakes a few minutes later. My husband took over last night, put him in the cot while he was doing this and after a couple of these grizzly cross cries he actually went to sleep really quickly! It seems to me that he's perhaps getting so tired that he needs to get less attention so that he can be allowed to get to sleep (if that makes sense at all).

Thanks again for all your advice - I've tried it and have got a lot of help from it, and am much less worried. I'm going to think about starting a routine for him, but more to get me into practice than forcing him into one, so if he's not ready then I'll go with the flow.

AngelDog - I'd love to ignore mornings as well, but unfortunately the boy will only sleep in a sling or a moving pushchair in the day. Oh well - at least he is sleeping!

Hello Squarepig. I've just joined Mumsnet because I saw your posting and it made me think of me and my 4 week old little girl! I find that I have to settle her in the sling during the day and that she generally sleeps ok in the night but last night didn't want to go down in her bed at all - either me or hubby held her most of last night..
About the fussing in the evenings - I find that she has a melt down between 6 and 7 in the evenings, takes about 3 big crying sessions for her to go off to sleep and then she tends to have her best sleep of the day. I have realised that her hungry cry is different from her tired cry and so don't feed her for too long (breast fed) before trying to settle her. She's falling asleep on me after feeds at the moment. I know I should be thinking about a routine where she doesn't do this but I'm a bit nervous about it..do you have any tips?
Just wondered how you're getting on now? Please don't feel a failure, I feel like one too most of the time but I'm trying to be less stressed about it all and go with the flow..scary first time mum stuff!

Hi Squarepig, like yourself I waited for a long time to become a Mum and now that I am, am feeling EXACTLY the same as you. My 6 wk DS is a cowbag ! No, seriously, she is fussy from 5pm to 7pm every night and cries before, during and after her bath. She gets herself into such a state that dispite being hungry she will NOT take her bottle (unable to b/f) until such time as I've calmed her down, although this can take ages. I too cannot get DS off to sleep unless she is upright on me, in the car, or being pushed around in the pram. Also, she seems to know if she is NOT out and about and simply rocking in the pram inside the house "don't cut the mustard". SHe was admitted to hospital last week for 2 days for severe reflux (on medication which seems to have helped) and during this time she was on us upright which is how this possibly started. Now we cannot get her to sleep without our help .
I did actually take my passport and fled home to the UK (I live abroad) to my family for some much needed reassurance (poor dh does his best).
Although I jest now, an hour ago when she was screaming the house down, I was actually in tears and begging my sister to make her stop so I do know how you feel. She is settled now but I feel constantly anxious that any minute now she will kick off again. Can't relax.
People tell you that it will pass and they will grow out of it, but no matter how many times you hear this, it doesn't help when the baby has their screaming fits or are knackered from rocking them to sleep for an hour.
I know I haven't got any great tips or advice but I thought I would let you know that others are going through the same thing and reading your post, made me feel better.

Sending you a "fussy-baby" hug.

Perhaps he has colic. Have you tried Infacol??

Hello again! And thanks again!
Zeb, yes, we've been stuffing Infacol down him, but I think he gets overtired rather than colicky. However, he's now decided that he'd rather sleep in our bed again, rather than the lovely bedside cot with lovely mattress and lambskin that we procured for him with much trouble. Also, horrors, the pushchair has stopped magicking him to sleep, so I'm hefting a stone of baby about in a sling or he doesn't sleep. Argh! Baby sleep patterns: think you've got it worked out? Ha! Stick around, they'll change.

Hi squarepig... yup, very similar with us and our 4 week old. We seem to have tried every solution in the book and none of them work all of the time! So mainly this post is a bit of solidarity, but also to suggest doing a bit of expressing in the morning (after a shower works well for me as your body is relaxed). I just use a hand pump, about 10 minutes gets me 4 oz which I freeze in 2oz bags. Then when we are at our wits end in the evening and I simply can't face any more BF and my boobs are sore sore sore then at least DH can take over and top her up with some milk. Seems to work at least some of the time. I had a big mental aversion to expressing, just seemed like another thing to try and get my head round, but it has been a lifesaver on occasions.

Also, the less visitors the better in my opinion!

Good luck from someone else who definitely hasn't got it sorted out either.

Squarepig and fhutts, I feel exactly the same as you both. We were desperate for DD to come along and now that she has, I feel like I'm letting her down by not coping very well. She's 6wks and I think she's having a growth spurt or something as her sleeping's gotten even worse, but she's never slept unless on me/DH, in a pram outside or in the sling, so I totally feel your pain. She also breaks off feeds in the evenings, crying and gasping/coughing - I think she's just so hungry that she gulps way too much air and gives herself terrible wind, so started to feed more frequently but now I think she doesn't take full feeds, just tops herself up every hour or so - you can't win! I'm frequently in tears because I can't work out what she needs, or because it's just all a bit much in general. Might be something to do with the sleep deprivation, too!
No answers I'm afraid, except that it's supposed to get better/easier, and until it does, we just need to muddle through as best we can.
Agree with comneonbishbosh - try to limit guests, and if they do come, make them bring dinner/wine, or get them to take the baby while you go and have a nap.
Oh, and we've coslept since she got home from hospital - she resolutely refuses to sleep in her lovely cot, as well, and whenever I try to put her in it she screams the house down until I pick her up. I'd rather have her in with me and actually get some rest, rather than have that battle 5 times a night...
Good luck!

hello ladies sounds like my DD was and shes 8m now . I waited years for her (IVF baby) and was so distraught when she was tiny. she screamed every evening for 13 weeks then it suddenly stopped. Shed be on and off boob every few mins for 4h at a a time. Hub used to dance her round the room. In the end we both exhausted i ended up just sitting holding and rocking even tho she still would scream. Anyway I know now that she was just overtired and couldnt get to sleep (overstimulated ) poor mite. needed a lot of holding.
anyhow shes great now really happy (except mardy when tired but thats nothing like newborn scream)
i read that if u feel anxious when ur newborn cries its a good thing cos shows you are connecting well rather than being detached
good luck ladies! it really wont be for ever but by god it feels like it