Very, very hard to settle - help!

[dorisbonkers]

My 13 month old baby is breastfed to sleep and we co-sleep. Was originally in an amby, then co-sleeping the rest of the night, but from about 8 months has been exclusively in my bed.

She's always been a tricky sleeper but for the last month it's been increasingly difficult to put her to bed.

I've made my peace with broken sleep. I can cope with that and co-sleeping helps. She typically wakes 2-3 times a night.

I've done a bath/story/breastfeed to sleep sequence since 6 months. I've tinkered with times -- trying to get her to bed anything from 6.30pm to 9pm. I've tinkered with naps - from 2 a day, to one long one, but it can be very hard to get her to sleep when she doesn't want to sleep. Also, she will only sleep on me on a cushion often with a nipple in her mouth so you can imagine I can't get an awful lot done. I used to be able to get anything done when she'd gone to bed, but now bedtime is taking a few hours and I'm losing the plot!

She's tired enough but flails about on the bed and now she's big now and tugs and pulls on my tit which drives me up the wall. So sometimes I've picked her up and breastfed her on the sofa and transferred her to the bed (as I have done tonight)

I don't ever have TV on (only a bit of Radio 3 or 4 on) with her around, I keep the lights dim in the evening and generally am conscious to have 'wind down' time. I try my hardest to get the daytime naps she needs (typically 2 naps, one short, one a bit longer in a sling maybe). I have been consistent with a bedtime sequence.

She's been walking for a while now, talking like a demon so unsure whether it's developmental (it probably is sigh). I have racked my brains to figure out what isn't right with this situation.

I'm planning to go back to part time work in a month and my husband is going to look after her. So while this big change happens I'm reluctant to go all out and make a massive change like get her in her own room and do gradual retreat. I'd planned on riding this out so she has me settling her while we all readjust to me going back to work.

Any ideas of things I could change or tweak to get settling easier? My husband suggest leaving her up until she knackers herself out but it feels wrong to get her to bed at 10pm. And I hate to say it, but I do need some evening time.

It's also getting me frustrated and angry and last night I got so tearful I had to leave her in the room while she cried for a minute -- I felt bad but I was just so angry.

Thanks. I realise every child is different but I do get jealous when friends' kids go in a cot for a long daytime nap/take half an hour to go to bed, while I've been pinned to a sofa dying to urinate, or spent 2 hours feeding an alligator to sleep.

if leaving her up means she goes to bed easier i'd go with that

oh but also worth reading the no cry sleep solution by elizabeth pantley.
it's not a quick-fix solution, but it aims to introduce sleeping cues to the child to help them get to sleep more easily, so liek you alreadty have the routine bit sorted, pantley suggests things like, introducing a comforter, or having a specific piece of music playing.
also the pantley-pull-off technique is useful for getting them to fall asleep without boob in mouth!

I've been in a similar situation and can't really offer any advice . DS2 is now 2.4yo and has only recently started to settle in bed without too much hassle (he only stopped bf to sleep a couple of month ago just after I got pregnant again).

I don't think keeping her up will help tbh; just make the whole process happen later on.

I have posted a few times about the 'Kiss to Sleep' approach the HV Sleep Clinic recommended if you want to search it. It is mainly about being there for reassurance (not CC) and being very consistent in your approach.

After you have fed her and said goodnight, get your DH to settle her to sleep and to go to her every time she wakes (if you can get him to agree to it). She will soon get used to it and will probably make work transition easier for you all too.

I loved the ideas in the 'No Cry Sleep Solution' but couldn't get any of them to work with DS2...well maybe they are paying off now....

thisisyesterday thanks for the recommendation, but a well thumbed NCSS is sitting on the shelf right next to me! DH has even read it in one sitting after a bad night.

Some people call it a work of fiction! And on a bad day I'm inclined to agree. Partly because much of the stuff in it is predicated on dealing with a baby who gets drowsy -- mine doesn't. She's either bang awake or suddenly drowsy and then bang awake again!

That said, I reckon Pantley's tips can help with a younger baby.

Part of the problem is that I had weight anxiety ( she was early and a 5lb) and although breastfeeding was working, I was convinced that my supply wasn't all that so effectively for the first six months I was constantly feeding her. Even now at approaching 14 months I feed her very frequently. So she's incredibly used to it.

The problem at the moment with involving my husband is that he works night shifts Sun-Weds. He's going part time and will have the joy of slinging her to sleep when he looks after her when I go back to work (he already is more successful in getting her to sleep in the sling than I am), so maybe that will break the spell a bit. I suppose I've been expecting to ride this out while the big change happens

washersauraus thanks for the tip, but would that work for a co-sleeper? Would it confuse her if I got into bed later? I like the co-sleeping and don't mind the waking (which used to be much worse and has settled to just two to three waking) -- it's the settling that's got out of control.

For shame, I don't even have a cot!

DS2 was mainly co-sleeping with us up until we reached breaking point with me having to go to bed with him at 9pm or something silly like that.

We found that the night waking was sort of linked to the initial problems with settling to sleep, and when that improved the night feeds eased off and then stopped.

I think (for your own sanity) realistically you need to be working towards her going off to sleep without you, even if you continue to co-sleep that approach should work, but it does take a week or so of hard work initially so you need to be prepared.

You are lucky really, DS2 has never napped in the daytime either...

Washersaurus

Thanks again. So did that Kiss to Sleep thing work? I thought you said DS2 was still bf to sleep until recently?

I have no idea how to tackle getting her to sleep without me, particularly as I'm on my own for half the week.

So for example tonight I'm unsure of what to do. Bath, story and b/feed and then allow to rampage around a dark bedroom, or wrestle her breastfeeding to sleep.

Should I try to get her to sleep earlier? What I don't want to do, and what has been happening, is do the whole routine thing only for us to have to give up and get up again. Surely that destroys the good work of the whole bedtime sequence? But I can't also stay in bed as she struggles like a demon and just gets off the bed, opens the door, pulls all the books off the shelf etc.

BTW I don't think I'm that lucky with the naps, being pinned to a sofa with me leaning with a nipple in her mouth and me dying to have a wee/put the dinner on/reach the remote control. Often it's taken about 3 attempts to get her to nap.

So it feels like I've got m tits out all day and all night -- like a newborn except she's almost 14 months.

sigh. I'm dreading tonight.

doris you must be knackered! if i sound too harsh, i dont mean to. i just want to be honest. ur LO is going to be a toddler soon and what will you do?

if i was you, i would work out a routine and stick with it. she will cry, scream, rampage around like you said. but without stimulation and reward for her behaviour (reward means ur attention or presence), she will drop off to sleep. she needs to know that sleep time means she sleeps and you leave the room.

both you and ur DH need to be on the same page and it can be done

hi heron22

Isn't that CC though? I really don't think CC is appropriate for an 'attached' (for want of a better word) co-sleeper who has up until now been breastfed to sleep?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think CC is the devil's work and I bought and read the Ferber book. I've seriously considered it.

But I have been advised it's not the best way to crack this.

hi doris ok, if you want to continue to bf her to sleep and all that it entails (ie you are her means to sleep) then i am not sure what changes can be done.

like washer said you need to get her to sleep without you.

i think there is a lot of bad press about crying.

i have never let my lo cry for more than a minute or two. i use my digital clock to time it. i can also tell what kind of cry it is. if it is the tired cry he is best left alone. if i hear the frightened or hunry cry, then it is different!

Heron, it's all very well to say 'bad press' about crying and then say you have only ever left your child to cry for a minute or two! I can assure you, when my DS cries because he wakes in the night or because he won't nap, it would go on far far longer than 'a minute or two'.

Sorry, I should say that my problem isn't co-sleeping or the night waking -- it's dealing with her increasing resistance to going to bed.

Because I'm going back to work soon I don't want to make major changes -- yet.

I need ideas to make the settling process easier. Should I leave her up? Should I get her to bed super early. Should I sit in bed and read while she walks about in our room until she seems ready to breastfeed to sleep?

Believe me, my child doesn't cry much (she never gets a chance) but if I walk away from her it's a cry of real upset and distress. And it mounts and mounts. That I can tell from the couple of times I've had to just walk away from her.

I don't think CC is appropriate for a baby who has almost always breastfed/slung to sleep.

All very well for DH and me to be on the same page but he's not here for 4 nights a week!

But he is on the same page and also doesn't want to do a major shift to sleep training while we transition me back to work.

Sorry doris, I had to interject with that although it wasn't relevant to your problem.

You say it has got worse over the last month or so, do you think it could be a separation anxiety phase, as well as the probable developmental stuff you mention? What is she like with you in the daytime?

Have you tried perhaps a story tape, maybe one of you reading? Does she have any cuddly comforter or anything?

I know these are teeny suggestions but I am desperately trying to think of something to help, rather than just 'this too shall pass'!

thanks tinierclanger - and no problem for getting off message at all

I've posted several times and I suppose need answers and support from fellow co-sleepers or breastfeeders past 1 year as they perhaps understand the issues and reasons why you WANT to continue co-sleeping. If you see what I mean?

The problem is that co-sleepers and breastfeeders well past 1 year already feel they have the world's collective eye rolling at them, so can get touchy if people tell them to stop.

It's so hard, isn't it. It's good to hear people's responses and I'm grateful for all of them, but I'm not ready to go CC .... yet.

Haven't tried a story tape, I already read lots to her and erm, I'm her comforter I guess!

Sorry, should say that I'm not directing any of that last any anyone who kindly answered me! More blurting out loud a gust of frustration at how many people IRL have told me to CC!

Oh, and yes, I guess there may be bad press about crying, but equally, there is no way you can tell if it does affect children. I suppose we all have our stresses and comfort levels. A bit of crying is probably fine, but a lot of crying over a long period, less fine.

I reckon my child wouldn't do a bit of crying and then settle.

I also have deep seated personal reasons not to do it as I remember being CC'd in my toddlerhood and hating it.

Maybe leave her with one of those knitted boobs midwives carry around?

Hope you get some more support on here.

ha! If only I could knit, I'd knit a new me.

I am open to all ideas, but for now, don't ant to CC (but don't discount it in the future completely

tinier* ok i get it ur babies cry lot longer than a minute or two! luckily mine dont!

I am not a fan of CC either, but one thing I can suggest, and we did this with DS (who was never sleeping through), is to perhaps set yourself a deadline to do it. Because that helps you get through the interim period. So you could perhaps say, if she is still like this at 18 months, you will try CC. For us, it gave a feeling of relief that there was an ultimate backup plan, if nothing changed.

We never actually did it though, as he improved on his own.

Also, have you tried cranial osteopathy? Another clutching at straws thing, but it might just make a difference.

I think that's very sensible tinier and yes, I want to get us past the stage of settling back to work, then I think I can look at the big picture in a clearer light.

in the meantime i just want to get the nightmare of settling down from 2 hours to more like 1.

It used to be easy. Bath, story and then 15 minute feed and she was off. Wonder what's happened to change it (could be anything, including mounting sense of tension I feel...)

Wow, wonders will never cease.

Took her for her MMR but couldn't squeeze in a nap beforehand so by the time we were walking back she was hanging. She fell asleep in the Ergo while I typed the last message and I managed to get her out of it and into our beanbag thingy and she woke, but was sleepy and fell asleep with me rubbing her belly.

That is the first nap EVER that has not been on my lap or walking in the sling (never been able to stop and transfer her out). Jesus, I could actually have a shower before 10pm!

So maybe I should let her get properly knackered as she fell asleep easily just then?

Don't know if it helps, but I find that my DS now (15 months) needs to be absolutely knackered or he won't sleep. For us the problem was daytime napping, not nighttime sleep, but it used to take me over an hour a time to settle him for naps. Now, instead of panicking about him being over tired i worry about him being undertired, as he just won't wind down for a nap unless he is!

All the things about putting him to bed earlier didn't help at all - he actually needed to be more tired, not less, to sleep properly. He's never needed as much sleep as other babies, and barely sleeps for 12 hours in 24

What you say about your DD falling asleep today might mean she's similar?

Sorry, RL got in the way of MN .

After it all got too much, DH and I worked out a bedtime routine where I would bf DS2 in the dimly lit bedroom and then he would pop him into bed, as DS2 would get very very distressed if I tried to put him in bed and then leave him. We both did the kiss to sleep thing and it did really help with the separation issues he seemed to be having.

It was a big step going from bf to sleep to that but he was over 12mo and seemed to cope.

I mean our sleep problems are by no means solved; DS2 is still rampaging around upstairs, but at least he isn't distressed....just messing around with books etc

Hi Doris - lots of sympathy, I've had my fair share of sleep woes.

I co-slept with DD until a few weeks ago (she's 4.5) and she has always needed help to go to sleep, though the type of help and the amount of time I need to spend helping has varied a lot over the years.

We have gone through periods of bedtime battles. Generally speaking I've found that the frustrating prolonged bedtimes happen at times when I need to instigate a change in her routine, e.g. a drop from two naps to one or a later bedtime. I've also found that if I just fiddle about with adjusting her routine for a day or so then it doesn't work and that I've needed to stick at it for at least a couple of weeks. I mention that only because I wonder if you need to persevere with dropping from 2 naps down to one nap?

Also, I'm doing some v gentle sleep teaching with my 8 month old co-sleeping DS at the moment, and it's not nearly as bad as I thought it might be. I'm doing a sort of gradual retreat thing to break the association with feeding and sleep and it's basically got us to the point where we are cuddling him to sleep rather then feeding all the time.

It sounds to me like your DD might certainly do quite a lot of crying if you did sleep training...but would you be more willing to go through it if the sleep training involved staying in the room?