Trying to get BF DD (2) to sleep better - think I need some hand holding...

[Tangle]

To put in the background, DD is BF on demand and has always used BF as a way to get to sleep. Its been wearing at times but in general we've all been fairly happy with the situation. However, the last week or so I've reached the point of saying "enough" - she's been waking up and needing to feed for up to 2 hours before she'll stay asleep, and its just getting too painful to keep doing.

Thursday night was the breaking point - she woke up about 3:15 and by 5 I'd reached the stage of chewing my fingers as a distraction from the pain and realised this was getting silly . It then took me about an hour to persuade her (through tears and screaming) that she could go back to sleep by herself and she did then stay there for 3 hours and wake up happy.

We feel really bad because we know DD is teething at the moment (back molars - we'd be more forgiving if she'd been sleeping better and could view the teeth as an interlude, but this is pretty well normal for DD) but DH and I have agreed that something needs to change and so we're more or less using the Dr Jay Gordon sleep plan. So last night was the first "official" night of sleep training and it wasn't easy - after having a bit of milk DD screamed and screamed and screamed while walking around the room for about an hour before deciding she'd lie on her bed with me rubbing her back and telling her stories from memory, wand then went to sleep fairly quickly. Again, at least she did then sleep for 3 or so hours, but woke up at 6 and wanted more milk - and I'm still too sore to let her feed as long as she wants at any point and I think it was too light and interesting (with the dawn chorus, etc) for her to go back to sleep at all.

Logically I know this is probably completely normal and it will get better, but now it's my DD that's upset because I'm refusing her her biggest comfort in the world I'm finding it very hard to believe it and feel at all positive about tonight.

Anyone got any stories that will make me feel better?

Just lots of empathy. DS is 21 months, has much the same attitude to BFing and it has made me feel like you do just now - fed up!

I've tried a few times but always given up (he's teething/has wind/has been ill/is overtired etc). Sometimes and excuse to give in, sometimes it has just felt wrong.

I think we will reach the stage you are at sometime soon. Lots of sympathy, it is such a hard thing. But if you feel this way it is probably for the best and you will all be happier. It might help if your DH does the settling for a while rather than have you there with her but refusing her something she's come to expect?

Hope you find things get easier soon

Are you giving her pain meds for the teething? I think that's step one. Step two is to explain to her that she doesn't need milk to go to sleep and that Mummy needs to sleep too. Dr. Jay Gordon wasn't a gentle enough night weaning process for me, TBH, but all night comfort nursing teethathon wasn't for me either.

First I cut out the nursing to sleep, which involved no more nursing in his bed, but rather on the couch before bed. In the beginning it took two hours of pick up/put down with a 32 lb nearly 2yo. After 3 days he was fine with no more nursing to sleep, but didn't know how to fall asleep so I had to implement a new bedtime routine. That took about 3 weeks and ended with us cuddling to sleep after books. Still, this was an improvement.

At night I'd pull him off when he started the comfort nursing and he'd get angry, rather than upset. Being able to distinguish helped. If he had a tantrum, he was allowed to do so; it seemed fair given I'd just moved the goalposts. Eventually he'd come back and cuddle and we'd go to sleep. Usually it lasted less than 5 minutes.

At his 2yr visit his pediatrician suggested telling him he could nurse for 10 seconds and that I count to ten. Well 10 was too long for me, but 5 was a good number. Depending on how he is sucking (productive versus comfort) I vary the speed of the counting. If he's still productively sucking after I reach 5 I will let him continue and count again. After less than a week he was pulling off himself, sometimes at the count of 2, other times at 4 or 5. This was a big step in really getting the night weaning moving.

He now wakes up around 11pm, goes on the potty, then back into bed. He'll ask to nurse, but I say no, milk is sleeping (I have been telling him this for coming up on 6 months now) so it can make more milk for him. He'll say again he wants to nurse and I say "I know you do" (empathy) rather than yes or no. If he gets very upset I'll let him 'wake the milk up' and nurse. I think there's always a reason why he gets very upset and that it's not worth upsetting him. Consistency is not essential, I think understanding is more valuable. Some nights he doesn't nurse between bed and waking, other nights he nurses once. This is a huge improvement. There's also no more comfort nursing at night.

Good luck!

Oh, and night weaning has not changed his waking pattern at all. He still wakes up 3-4 times a night and comes into bed with us around 1am, but then usually goes through until 6am. Come to think of it, he may be down to 2-3 times a night now.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Fair Midden - we have tried DH going in, but it just tends to make things worse . She'll get more and more hysterical until she starts screaming "Daddy go out door! Daddy go out door!" which starts to get quite upsetting for all involved. I'm sure it will change over time (its only in the last 6 months that DH has been acceptable in the evenings and I haven't had to feed her then as well), but for now I think that if there are any changes to be made they'll have to be made by me.

Ches - we're giving her teething gel and then some neurofen if she says her teeth still hurt. We have sat down during the day and explained what's going to happen at night and why, but I'm not sure its entirely clear to her just yet. When she wakes up she wants milk and only milk will do - I'll let her feed for a few minutes and then remind her that we're only having "little milks" and why and that she'll have to stop soon and she'll often stop straight away. But then she'll start crying... And she won't let me give her teething gel or a drink or a cuddle or rub her back...

The one thing I wonder is whether I should be trying to deal with bedtimes now as well - I'm still feeding her to sleep then, but she's been pretty tired and so its fairly quick (usually

I chose to separate the feeding to sleep and the night weaning. I don't think it caused him any confusion, but, having tackled feeding to sleep first, I felt it had been too upsetting in general (mostly the absence of a replacement bedtime routine) to then upset him further with night weaning at that time.

Refusing to let you cuddle her/rub her back sounds like a bit of a tantrum, which I really think is fair play. She's frustrated and upset while tired, and IMO (at least with my DS) I think it's okay to let them express that. I just let him stomp his feet (don't let him hit me, though) and yell a bit and keep offering him cuddles intermittently and soon enough he's had enough and he cuddles in and goes straight to sleep. If she hasn't been doing this for long (less than a month) I'd let it carry on.

Your needs are as important as hers, IYSWIM, and you are meeting hers by letting her nurse to begin with. Her ability to empathize is growing every day, so keep explaining to her that comfort nursing hurts you (what I say, when really I mean annoys the crap out of me) so when the milk is gone she has to stop. I really do recommend counting (especially if she can count to five/ten) because it lets her prepare herself, rather than being popped off out of the blue. Her sense of time - what is a minute, what is ten seconds - is not as developed as her ability to process sequences - i.e. know that five comes after four which is after three...

The other thing the doctor suggested was putting plasters over your nipples at bedtime, but I thought that might be a bit disturbing, making him think he'd hurt me, and I do NOT want him to wean because he feels he is harming me! I do show him where he has left teeth marks if he has been comfort nursing and hurting me. I'll say something like "don't use your teeth please, it hurts mommy" and then if he doesn't stop, pull him off and show him the marks. This week I've said "boobies aren't for teeth" and he has actually said "for tongue!" so he knows what he's supposed to do and therefore knows when he's getting lazy and comfort nursing.

So last night she had a brief moment about 11 that DH dealt with and then slept through till nearly 7 - there's something to be said for exhaustion! Shame I've come down with a grotty cold and couldn't sleep really...

Thanks Ches . I'll try the counting with her and see how we get on - I see what you mean that "after 5" is easier for her to comprehend than "soon".

I don't expect too many through the nights (she's thrown in the odd one or two for a while, but no more than that) just yet but at least it gives us hope