Nature or nurture?

[SweetBasil]

My DS is 8 months and has never slept through the night. He wakes a few times, but I only need to feed him once between 19h30 and 6am. Since I don't know any teenagers who wake at night for a drink of milk, I assume this has to change at some point. How does this happen? Do I need to intervene and do something to change this pattern (let him cry, no cry sleep solution, feed him boiled water, pick up/put down)? Or can he magically learn to sleep the way younger babes who haven't yet learned bad habits do?

Is it possible to just leave him to it and let him sleep through when he's ready or do I need to change the way that I respond to the night wake-ups?

I think I have just asked the same question in a slightly garbled way! So interested to see replies...

I think it is perfectly normal for a baby of that age to wake up either for comfort or food at night. You may find that this changes on its own or that you begin to feel that you need to help him change it. I'd personally say that this is too young to deny him a night feed or comfort if that's what he wants but others would probably feel differently. I personally found that my daughter suddenly started sleeping reliably through the night on her own at about a year. She occasionally woke for a feed and I didn't start giving her water instead of milk until she was 14 months and I really felt she was able to do without a feed at night. This was when she'd started eating proper meal-sized amounts of solids and snacks as well during the day.

It all depends on whether you feel able to let your baby find his own path to sleeping through or if the night wakings are bothering you to the extent that you feel you must do something about it.

My view is that it is a mixture of nature and nurture. For what it's worth, when we adopted a policy of not taking DS out of the cot once had had gone to bed (comforted him in the cot if necessary) he pretty soon stopped waking up...

When did you do that BIOTBogey - how old was your DS?

Started it around 5 months I think. Didn't want to leave him to cry but wanted to make waking up boring. We were recommended this method and it worked a dream. I don't go in for grumbles, only proper crying. I lean in and put my cheek to his for a minute or so and then leave for a minute and keep repeating. Only, I don't anymore because he sleeps 1930 - 0800 without waking with two naps a day which he goes down for without a grumble. Until we did this, I lived on this board and in a constant state of desperation...

Thanks, it's a hard one. We've been moving cities these last 6 weeks and he's been in the bed with us for that while. The cot arrives tomorrow and I'd like to put him back in it and I anticipate that I might have a rough time. I'm a bit unsure how to play it - whether to allow the wake-ups or to use this as an opportunity to "teach" him to sleep through.

It's tricky - I'm convinced my ds is waking out of habit and expecting to be fed (and then isn't interested at all in breakfast at 7am!) A couple of earlier wakings we've settled him back to sleep and both times he slept through. But then last night his teeth were obviously bothering him and so after endless comforting, Bonjela etc. I fed him as I knew it would make him sleepy and comfort him, which I think was the right thing to do. It's so hard to make the call as to whether they need feeding or not. And, when everyone is tired, feeding seems a lot easier...

How long did it take, BIOTBogey (in terms of hours/mins to get your DS back to sleep and nights before he stopped waking?

First time it took about 30 mins and it was never that bad again. Took five nights in total. But was very worth it and I honestly believe he is happier and more settled for it. Good luck.

I agree, Arthymum, it is easier to simply feed than to otherwise settle a grumpy half-awake baby.

Okay Bogey, that sounds like a good idea. Did he not cry himself into a state when not picked up? I spent ages when mine was 6 months encouraging him to fall asleep by himself in the cot and now thanks to this drawn out move, we're back to square one where he'll either feed to sleep or fall asleep on the bed with his arms wrapped around my neck and his forehead against mine. Precious, but high maintenance. Especially since I don't think I'll quite fit into the cot. But I'll try the strategy of only one feed and nothing but the cot between 19h30 and 6am.

Depends when you want them to learn it. We've done no sleep training whatsoever with our children. DD1 has been sleeping through for a few years now (5.5 now), DD2 also (4). DD3 wakes once for a cuddle but is in our bed so that's easily sorted (2) and DD4 is a baby so doesn't count in this

My DD stopped needing a milk feed at night at about 7-8 months. We had a few set backs (with teeth/illness and so forth up until about 1 year).
By night I mean between 7pm and 6am! In my experience many people claim their kids sleep through and actually mean a five hour stretch! (It took me months to figure this out with my first baby!)

My DS (now 11 months) has taken longer to get there. He still feeds once between 7pm and 6am but is feeding for shorter periods. I agree with StarlightMcKenzie in that childen stop waking when they no longer need too. When they are poorly, teething or going through a developmental change I believe they need to know you are there. However I would say (through my own wrong doings!) only feed when you are sure they are hungry and there does come a point when they really don't need to be fed at night if they are eating and drinking sufficiently in the day. With my son I expect to stop offering a milk feed at night in the next few weeks, however, he may continue to wake up.

Perhaps try and leave longer between attending to your DS cries (if you normally wait 2 mins, wait 3 and then 5 and then 10) Depending on how he is crying and his wellbeing in the day (if he is teething for example any success may be limited or when poorly for example)

My DD, now nearly 4, sleeps all night and has done for several years. So they do get there, sometimes the journey may be rocky! When she is ill she still needs me and her dad at night and will continue to for many years to come. Of course when you start teaching your son to use the toilet the night feeds become toilet trips........

I hope that is useful?

I think it depends on how YOU feel about getting up. If you don't mind then keep doing what you're doing, he may grow out of it as his solids increase and he goes onto three square meals plus snacks in a day. Plus crawling etc uses up more energy so he will be more physically.

If you are at the end of your tether about getting up then I think you will have to change something about what you're doing. Easy for me to say, I know, but then I come from the Gina Ford school of thinking and both dd's slept through 7am-7pm from 14 weeks (not bragging, this is normal for Gina's routine)

If waking is more habitual than hunger I think you could go in and 'shh shh', perhaps rest your hand on their tummy/back for reassurance, not a lot of talking, don't pick up etc. He won't take it lightly as he's used to being fed and you will no doubt have 3-4 nights where he is unsettled but you will be able to break the waking habit within a week.

It's entirely your choice. IME babie who are still night waking after six months will still be doing it at a year.

Thanks for the replies. I was curious to hear whether babies DO eventually learn to sleep through without some kind of intervention.

My boy doesn't seem to self-soothe and will start crawling about unless I settle him. The last few days have been good - only 2 wake ups in a 12 hour stretch and only one of these needing a feed. I think that he is getting enough to eat during the day and he is very active - crawling and standing and even sometimes cruising the furniture.

He used to wake up a lot more (between 5 and 7 months it was sometimes as bad as every hour) for medical reasons but I think that these have largely been resolved since I gave in and put him on Neocate. When I start to mind the 2 or 3 wake-ups, I think back to a few months ago and that puts things in perspective.

Now, can anyone tell me how to get him out of the bed ?

DD1 needed some strong "encouragement" not to wake up in the night. We eventually did controlled crying with her, and she slept through at 8.5mths.

DD2, on the other hand, reduced feeds and then slowly moved her last remaining feed till dawn without any encouragement. She never woke unless hungry, and slept through at 4.5mths.

My conclusion - some need help to sleep through, others will just do it on their own. If they are still waking up at 9mths, I'd say they fall into the former category and you are well within your rights to give them some assistance!

I remember thinking my little girl would NEVER sleep through. I tried loads of things. She was breastfed but I started to give her a formula bottle on a night as she drank more, more quickly, without nodding off. I tried letting her cry it out once or twice but that didn't work - she was fully persistant and it would go on for much, much longer than we could stand it (must've been well over 30 mins, maybe longer, and that's a long time at 3am!)

In the end, as SweetBasil says, it was just easier have a bottle ready in the fridge ready to microwave, and to get up and feed her, in which case, she dropped straight off again and slept till a very respectable hour.

This went on until she was about 10 months. When people in shops etc asked me if she was sleeping through, they'd often look shocked when I said she wasn't!

I found what worked with my little girl was telling hubby that, as he was off work on hol for a week or two, HE could get up and do the night feed and I was sleeping through. I found that, once it was HIS turn, she stopped completely!

One tip the health visitor gave me was to gradually water down their night feed until they were having all water or as weak a feed as they would accept in the night - ALTHOUGH THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A TIP FOR AN OLDER BABY, WHO'S EATING AND DRINKING WELL DURING THE DAY! I can't vouch for it as I think had only started trying it when my daughter started to sleep through at 10 months.

I think it's a natural thing as long as you don't start habits that deter it, if that makes sense. My little girl used to wake twice in the night and then naturally dropped to once. To me, it made more sense to establish the night as being for sleep - my daughter went down well and slept through till 3 or 4am, and went straight back to sleep until 8am ish after she'd had a bottle. I thought it was better to feed her and get her straight back to sleep than get her into the habit of being awake in the night.

The Baby Whisperer lady used to comfort in the cot as BIOTB does. I think anything's good that gets them to sleep in their own bed fairly quickly, be it feed, comfort, dummy, cry it out, or whatever.

My little girl's now 4 1/2 and sleeps like a log. The Salvation Army Band could march through her room and she wouldn't wake up.

My little boy's 2 now and he started to sleep through quicker, but still has the odd night now when we have to go in a give him a dummy, give him a cuddle or give him a bottle.

As I've said, both had bottles to get them back down as quickly as poss, and both grew out of these naturally, with time. So that seems to have worked okay for us. Touch wood. Eeek!

Both mine just started sleeping through at 3 months. They were in our room, one was bf and dd was ff, so that didn't make a difference.
They just didn't wake up in the night wanting food, we didn't do anything.

I've long suspected that some babies are naturally good sleepers and others aren't. I know lots of parents whose babies sleep through before 4 or 5 months. But is it possible for older babies who are on three balanced meals and about 600 - 800mls of milk a day to change this habit on their own?

I dislike being awake at 3am and trying to coax him back to sleep when he's clearly unlikely to settle without either a feed or some fuss. But is it worthwhile in the longer term to have a few sleepless nights ssshhing and patting and singing twinkle twinkle little star or can I just pop the bottle (ah, I miss the boob) in his mouth and hope that in a few months he'll be over it.

Unrealistic, I have a flask, a bottle and pre-measured Neocate next to the bed so, never mind the fridge, I don't even , get out of bed to feed him

try reading the Baby Whisperer.. lots of sensible tips/hints, none of which involve too much crying. She recommends looking at the whole day, not just the night e.g. giving an extra feed in the evening and takes personality, illness, colic etc into account. I am hopeful it might work at some point but my baby too tiny at the moment!

Well, my 14mth old still wakes up at about 4-5am - all our own fault....

I started giving him his morning bottle a few months back at that time, as it was the easiest way to get him to go back to sleep til gone 7.... I could give him the bottle and crawl back to bed.
Now he needs it every morning at about that time........ gggrrr......

Now, do I do something about it? Or assume this will pass when he reaches 2yrs old or so? Seeing as I am the only one who bothers to get up in the middle of the night, and I am the one working full time (married to a SAHD), I'll go with carry on doing what I am doing..... because the idea of getting up at 5am and then staying up for an hour settling DS2 without controlling crying just fills me with dread.

He'll grow out of it eventually,... I hope. DS1 (3.9yrs) never had any issues and is a 7til7 sleeper now, has been since about 2yrs old. No exceptions.

Fingers crossed.

I found rather than waiting for my son to wake up at some point (usually around 2am) if I woke him at 10.30pm for a feed before I went to bed, he would sleep through till 6.30am-7ish. I'd give him half a feed, then change his nappy, then the other half and back down.

As he got used to not waking of his own accord, when I stopped waking him he slept through.

It's hard waking them when they don't want to wake up but it was better than getting up in those horrid early hours! Good luck whatever you do.

i do a lot of sleep training

depends how much you want to crack the sleepless nights and go cold turkey on milk, and sleep train

it will be hard, but if you do the same thing every night, no running in at first wimper. with stroking, not picking up and def no bottles/feeding then your child will learn to sleep through quickly

i normally say a week to crack it, but def can be done by 2 weeks, and sometimes within 3 nights

but you must be repetative!!

I know it is easier to feed and baby to be back to sleep in 5mins, but if you want to crack it and get wholenights sleep again then you must be tough

you are not beind mean at 8mths old it is habbit, and tbh a child should be able to have last boob/bottle at 7ish and sleep through till 7

you can try boiled water, but i persoanlly feel that you are trading one thing for another

What you need to do very much depends on you. some babies are good sleepers, some aren't. if yours isn't then you have a choice to either respond to them and give them what they need or actively try to change their behaviour. Then there are techniques which involve letting them cry and techniques that are more gentle (no cry sleep solution).

But what you do really depends on where you stand on it all really. DD was a nightmare sleeper but the no cry sleep solution helped us - I can't bear the thought of leaving babies to cry in the night but that is just me. Other people are fine with it. It is a personal choice.

FWIW, I don't actually think 8 months is old to not be sleeping through, but then DD was 2 before she properly did so I am probably not the person to talk to!

every baby i have looked after as a nanny or been employed as a night nanny to has been sleeping through by 8 weeks with dream feed 10/11pm and by 12 weeks 7-7

but it is easier for me as i dont have the emotional attachment that mums do - but hopefully my baby will do the same

this is done with a routine of 3/4 hrly feeding depending on boob or bottle, having 5feeds during the day to make sure babies tummy was full, last feed at night if normally BF to be formula

its not wrong to have your child still waking, but if you want undistirbed sleep then follow my advice

DD slept through the night for the first time at 10 months when my mum took over night time. After 3 nights, she slept through. No tears. We were co-sleeping until that.