I am desperate to regain our evenings. how do I do it?

[firstpastthepost]

I know that people on here sing the praises of the bath/boob/bed routine in the evening.

We have managed to introduce this to some extent, but DD is just not interested. She is now 20 weeks, has been having an evening routine for some time (about 10 weeks now) and the evening is deteriorating rather than improving.

She has a morning and lunchtime nap very well, and by the time she falls asleep for her evening nap it is frequently 4:45/5:00pm. I only let her sleep for a max of 30 mins, and then begin the evening routine, which will typically go:
4:45 pm - fall asleep
5:15 - I wake her up and give short feed
5:45 - bath
6:15 - feed (40 mins or so)
She then appears vaguely sleepy for 10 mins or so, before getting a second wind, then:
8:00 - another feed and attempt to settle. She is not remotely interested in settling, and screams if we take her upstairs into her dark, quiet nursery. By about 9pm she is totally over tired and the only way to get her to sleep is to rock her in her pram. I then wake her for a feed at about 10-11 before going to bed, but she is so tired from having a poor evening sleep that it is a struggle to feed her enough, and she is waking more and more in the night.

DH and I are thoroughly miserable. We were quite happy to dedicate the evening to her when she was cluster feeding (she is exclusively BF), or if she had a tummy ache or something, but now that there is no real reason for her being up, we are both desperate to get her asleep in her cot for the evening.

She sleeps in her cot happily at night (settles v easily after 10pm feed as she is so knackered) and at nap times - I use shhh pat to settle her for all of these sleeps, but it doesn't seem to work in the evening.

So, should I:
a) try to force her to do without her afternoon nap (she wakes from her lunchtime nap any time from 2-2:30pm, so it would be a long time till bed even if I put her down at 6:30)
b) suffer her screaming and shh/pat until she falls asleep in her cot in the evening. I will willingly do this for a week or something if you tell me it will make her understand that the evening is for sleeping, not sitting in front of the telly with her parents
c) both of the above
d) put up with the above situation until she is 6 months and do CC (really don't want to do this, desperate to find a solution, but I will resort to this if we are still in this situation in 2-3 months time) to get her asleep in the evenings
e) do something else we haven't thought of.

She currently has about 45 min nap in the morning, 2 hours at lunch, 20-30 mins in the afternoon, then sleeps for about 60-90 mins before 10pm feed, sleeps from 11:30pm-4am, quick feed then wakes at about 6:45 to start the day. She is usually fairly sleepy and grizzly on waking at 6:45, but is ready to go by the time she has had a feed.

Can anyone help? please? DH and I are desperate to do something to help our little girl get enough sleep in the evening, as she is currently only getting a maximum of about 11-12 hours in 24, and I feel this isn't enough.

I totally sympathise with you. My dd didn't sleep in the evenings at all until she was about 6 months old.
I know it is hard but I think some babies are just like this. I found that instead of fighting against it and feeling like something wrong is happening, it is much easier and less stressful just to accept that your dd is going to be awake in the evenings for a while.
Stop trying to get her to go to sleep and just have her awake with you until she is yawning and showing signs of being really tired.
Please don't do cc. She is only so little and it could cause you both more harm than good.
This is just a phase and in a few months it will be a distant memory and you will be stressing about something else!

In my experience, you really need to go with the flow.

I didn't ever try for a routine with either of my DCs (DD now 2 and DS 11 months). Both did cluster feeds from around 7:00 pm - 10:00pm, and then would sleep til about 02:00, and then again at 06:00 (another feed).

It's fairly normal for a baby to cluster feed in the evening, and want to be close.

BTW - I don't think you are doing anything wrong, other than perhaps having an idea that you will be baby free during the evening at 10 weeks

hello sounds like you are doing brilliantly! You are pretty much doing exactly the same routine that I did with my dd, so my advice would be continue with daytime routine the only thing I would do differently would be let the teatime nap be no longer than 20mins and then feed, play - or entertain at this age!, then bath, bit of baby massage maybe, pjs, feed, bed - aim for 7ish, some relaxing music might help (my dd always had the motzart for babies cd on!) I know cc is not for everyone but I also knew when my dd was 20 wks that I wanted my evenings back to myself so that I had some much needed chill out time. Am not a heartless witch at all but I left dd for 10min intervals (I set a timer as 10mins can feel much longer than it is when babies are crying) so every 10 mins would go up, cuddle and reassure and then put dd back in cot. The longest I ever had to do that for was 40 mins and after a week there was no problem with her going to bed and to this day she is an excellent sleeper who sleeps 12 - 14 hours a night and still has a nap - she is nearly 3! So I feel it was very much worth the stress of leaving her to cry for short periods. One friend gave me a good piece of advice was once you have put baby to bed ring somebody so that you can't rush straight back up! It not only distracts you but quite often just at the point where you are saying to your friend 'I really am going to have to go now' they fall fast asleep! Good luck Xx

ds3 is almost 20 weeks and I am SO not the person to advise about sleep with my horrendous history on MN with ds2 - but may I suggest Elizabeth Panltey's 'No cry sleep solution'. I bought it last week and apart from the 'getting them sleeping better' techniques, it explains quite a bit about this kind of thing.

Just re-looked at how your LO sleeps at night. I would kill for your 11:30-4am stretch of sleep right now!!!
At this age, pantley suggest they need about 15 hours in total a day. She said if you are trying to conquert the nights, do what ever you can in the day to make them nap - between 3-5 in day at this age. She says dont worry as well rested in the day makes them setttle better at night

I wish I had found this book 3 years ago

popsycal - it's interesting that you are finding NCSS so good now

I did try it with DS3 (my worst sleeper) but I found it less than useless

also - I have found, by looking closely at his sleep patterns for a week, that I was trying to get him to nap to early when he wasnt tired enough and he was cutting his naps short - just taking the edge off his tiredness - and not getting properly rested. He has had a few decent length npas today thought so \i sm interested to see how he goes in the night

sixspot - hellloooo!
A familiar 'oldie' face who is still around! I have found the 'settling without the boob; bits and the phases of getting them to settle in their cot to be the most helpful.. i have also found it really helpful looking closely at his sleep and keeping the diray

I know this is reasonably useless advice but I honestly have found (after having 3 horrendous sleepers) that the best solution is just to surrender and accept your children are how they are.

It has nothing to do with routines it is just luck if your baby will sleep in the evening or throught the night (unless you are willing to inflict cc on them)

They are only little for such a short time it is much better to just look after them as they need to be looked after.

You'll get your evenings back soon enough.

Surely everyone who has a baby expects their life to be interrupted slightly?

i think you need to get her down in her cot as soon as she looks tired after the 6.15 feed, not bother feeding any more, and also dont bother to wake her at 10/11.

ds1- went into routnine easily, always used to wake him for last feed.
ds2- (16wks) have found he is unhappy if fed up too much, if he's too full. I usedto wake him but hen tried not waking and he was much happier, we have had a couple of great nights (8-6) but mostly he wakes either 12pm and 6 or just 4 ish. wither way i am getting some good chunks of sleep. Also had cranial osteo sessions which definately helped him to ettle. Good luck

100 years - wow!!

goodness what terrible typing

routine
then
either
settle

sorry

Very belated congratulations by teh way popsycal . Wow, 20 weeks now!

Sorry for thread-crash, firstpastthepost.

With all of my three, it was the case that for quite a while at first there was no way of getting them down for the night until about 10-11 p.m. But gradually it somehow just got earlier and earlier so that by the time DS1 and DS2 were coming up to their first birthdays, they were going to bed at about 8 p.m.

I agree with Goodomen. In my experience all the people who gave me advice on routines etc were advising me only on what worked for their babies - and my baby wasn't their babies.

I think it's highly, highly likely that she is going to gradually start settling down better in the evenings because she is approaching an age where even the really fractious ones seems to improve a bit. If I were you I'd try to look less at the clock and more at her - if she needs to be in bed at 5pm then just do it.

I speak as someone whose baby screamed all evening every evening until around 5.5 months - you do think you're going to go mad, you do resent them, you do cope somehow. Looking back i wish I had been able to be a bit more laid back about the evenings thing because as has been mentioned, they are only little for a short time (and that means the bad bits will be over Soon).

thank you for all your thoughts, i really appreciate it.

To all those who say go with the flow, i would happily do this (and have done, which i am worried is how we have ended up here), but dd is getting over tired every singlew evening now. if i put her in the pram before she is completely knackered she yells, so she is unhappy whatever i do. i just feel we are all suffering, not just me and DH.

100 years - thanks for your routine. I think perhaps your longer naps and no later afternoon nap might be worth a try - it seems to give dd just enough of a second wind to go for hours in the evening.

plusoine - i think you are right, i just seem to be too slow, and by the time i get into the nursery with her after 6:15 feed she is ready to go again. would you do that feed quietly in the nursery?

popsycal - i know, we are v lucky to have that long stretch, and we usually get 2 hours after it too, so i am doubly worried about doing anything dramatic in the evening in case it upsets that! i will get that book out of the library, thanks.

if anyone has any other thoughts, keep them coming!

Drop the last nap? ds certainly was down to 2 naps by 20 weeks - the third one got in the way of picking dd up from nursery and stopped him settling at night. If she's waking at 5pm, that's quite late if you're trying to settle her a couple of hours later. Perhaps she's just not tired. Try shifting her afternoon nap slightly later, so she's waking around 3, or so?

I wouldn't get too hung up about the "recommended" number of hours sleep - ds has never managed what the books say he ought to be having (don't think he's read them as carefully as I have ) and he seems to be thriving.

What are the implications (for you) of just keeping her up until she is ready for sleep? Would it be worse than the screaming you're enduring at the moment? I know a lot of my friends have just kept their dcs up at this age, and let them play and do their thing until they're tired. It's not something I ever needed to do as despite their multiple sleep crimes, both of mine have at least always gone to sleep in the early evening. But it might save your sanity until she decides that evenings are for sleeping

FPTP, at this age she is much more aware of things going on around her. So more likely to fight sleep. Also, she is probably busily learning to sit up. Lots of development and interaction can interfere with sleep. Please don't think that you've got where you are because you went with the flow - she's only 20 weeks, she's very small to have learned anything she shouldn't have!

Not much help, but ds3 is only just sleeping in the evenings now at 6 months old. I know how you feel about the evenings as ds1 and ds2 went to bed at 7 from tiny babies so we always had our evenings. Ds3 has always had other ideas and has been hardwork in the evenings. But now, he seems ready to sleep for longer in the evenings.

I don't have any specific advice, just to say that all babies are different and it may take a little longer before your baby is ready to do this.

iatemakkapakka - thanks for the reassurance. i just feel so responsible and want to help her have a happy relaxed evening and a good night's sleep instead of the current hysterics!

snickersnack - good point!

might attempt getting the afternoon nap a little later and see of we can drg her out till 6:30 or something.

Another thing to remember is that this is only a tiny part of your life. You have years of evenings ahead of you, but your baby will only be tiny for a few months.

I bet nobody lay on their deathbed and thought "Hmm - I wish I had spent more time watching Eastenders"!

It will pass - they change all the time. Be led by her, enjoy her and things will be different in a couple of weeks.

Totally agree with those who have said "go with the flow"

I actually did the unspeakable with all my three, just sat on the sofa with them in the evening, let them feed/sleep whenever they wanted, and took them up to bed with me when I went to bed.

Over time it evolved into something else, just naturally.

OK, maybe I'll be throwing a bit of a spanner in the works here, but seeing as we're pooling knowledge, here are my two cents!

Babies sleep patterns don't start to mature until about 4 months of age, and at this point most babies should be having three naps a day - it seems to me that your dd is doing that already. Why oh why then are you waking her from her afternoon nap? NEVER WAKE A SLEEPING BABY! I can understand why you're doing it, you think it means she will go to sleep easier later on, but in actual fact quite the opposite happens: a tired baby finds it MUCH harder to get to sleep. I would guess that when you wake her she is still tired and this leads to all sorts of problems later in the evening. The same would definitely happen if you tried to force her not to have an afternoon nap. You would end up just doing her more harm than good. At that age I'm afraid babies don't necessarily go to bed at 6pm - my dd got into that routine at about 6-7months. It's probably more likely to be 8-9pm ish. Her late afternoon nap will gradually get earlier and then disappear at which point she will head for the 6pm bedtime (and that's when you will see the full benefit of instilling a good routine ) but at the moment please let her sleep for as long as she needs to whenever she needs to otherwise she will remain overtired and that leads to all kinds of problems down the line. A great book to read is Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Dr Marc Weissbluth (although I'd ignore the controlled crying bit until she's at least 9/10mo) - it really, really helped us and dd from about 4.5mo onwards. Again I can't stress enough how much you should let a baby sleep whenever they need to. You WILL get your evenings back soon, I GUARANTEE it, and then you will miss her when she's sleeping though! (Maybe not...). I hope I don't sound to shouty, I am only speaking from experience: as soon as we let dd sleep properly in the day (in her cot) for as long as she needed to (ie never waking her) we saw huge improvements. Have a read of the book - it has some really interesting info. And good luck! xx

www.amazon.co.uk/Healthy-Sleep-Habits-Happy-Child/dp/0449004023

All babies are defintiely different and I know this is the most annoying phrase ever but it's true. Buy a copy of Gina Ford's contented little baby book. It's quite strict but if you are the routine type then it will certainly work for you. I followed it to the letter when I had DD, now 21 months. He slept through from 6 weeks and was happy to go to bed awake at 7pm and settle self off. Now is another story as he is waking at 5.30amevery day and driving us loopy but in the early days Gina is definitely a saviour. Good Luck

I would say go with the flow too. Babies will find their own sleep routine and you will both find it a lot less stressful if you let her get into her own routine than if you try to force one on her. DS did go to bed a bit later but it also meant he woke up later in the morning - which I much prefer DH and I got plenty of time together while he played/fed etc with us downstairs - watching dvds(sometimes with subtitles) or reading. Gradully he fell asleep earlier of his own accord (around 8-8.30) - we never did CC/sleep training - any of it. TBH I don't think there is any one size fits all approach to a baby and I'm not a big fan of books that try to tell you there is...