Question for old hands:Has anybody sucessfully 'helped' their 18 month and older dc to sleep through(or for a bit longer!), fall asleep on their own etc? Advice please!

[daringdoris]

Sorry, this is a bit long.

Ok, my ds is 20 months old, and his sleeping is really getting me down. Like a poster earlier this week (gingernutlover?) and others, I regularly feel like running away, having an accident etc. Although I'm relieved to find I'm not alone feeling like this, I don't think this is a normal state of affairs. Nearly every day I wonder whether I should talk to my GP about possible depression.

I am somebody who is usually calm, collected and pretty laid-back, and I feel like I'm turning into a monster. The worst thing is, that my ds is also a calm and laid-back little boy, but I end up shouting at him, crying etc, which makes him cry(and makes me feel awful, of couse), and then I think I'm turning him into a monster...

Anyway, what I would really like is some concrete advice about his sleep . When I'm less tired I feel much better, so the answer is to get more sleep!

My ds sleeps on a matress on the floor in our room, he is bf to sleep and bf whenever he wakes in the night (which can be many, many times). At the moment I?m sleeping on a matress next to him, as it was getting too cold to be scooting in and out of bed, and anyway, I get more sleep this way(not great for my relationship though).

I would like him

1. to sleep for longer
2. to get back to sleep without bf
3. to sleep all night
4. to go to sleep on his own (ie fall asleep without bf)

not all at once, obviously! Even the first one seems impossible at the moment! But that seems like a fairly logical order to me.

He doesn't fall asleep for his nap either, so either I 'walk' him to sleep in a sling, or when he's with my MIL (I work 2 days a week) she pushes him in the pushchair. But he's starting nursery 2 days a week after Christmas and they're not going to do that are they? I suppose he just won't have a nap on those days. BUT I think I should deal with night-time first, shouldn't I?

So, parents who have sucessfully helped their toddlers to sleep for longer/on their own please post here! And others who are in the same situation!

Crying it out doesn't really appeal to me(although I have fantasised about it in the wee hours of the morning!) and in any case wouldn't be practical as he's on a matress on the floor.

Thankyou in advance.
xx
(off to read a wake to sleep thread somebody recommended - also, if this has already ben done to death, feel free to point me in the direction of old threads)

I think 20 months is old enough for them to begin to understand that they can wait a while longer during the night. My DD was about that age when I started refusing her night feeds, she got the message very quickly, with relatively few tears. You say you are against any kind of cry it out solution and I'm with you really, but if your sleep deprivation is leading to you shouting and there being tears during the day then you really have to address it.

Please read this article. He is a very strong proponent of ap but offers a night weaning plan for older babies like yours. HTH

Thankyou very much Sputnik - I had read that article before, ages ago, but I think the 'picking up' bit put me off, as when you co-sleep, you don't need to pick them up and I didn't feel like starting!

I'm pretty inspired this time though. Must choose a 10 day period when dp isn't working morning shifts or he'll be going off the rails too!

Forgot to say, will let you know if it works. Solutions for older frequent wakers do seem to be a little thin on the ground, as loads of threads on here show. Wake to sleep sounds great though, but for children who wake once at a regular time. Maybe I'll try it if ds goes down to waking once (gasp!) per night!

Hope you don't mind me asking but is he sleeping in your room from choice? Does he have a room to go into? If so, I would suggest putting him in it. In my case DS only slept through when he was in his own room, and even now (he's 18 months now) he sleeps much less well if we share a room (eg staying over somewhere). Or if not, can he share your bed?

I actually think if you can get the daytime naps established first this might have a knock-on effect for the nighttime. In ds's case it was certainly this way round. He was rather younger though so perhaps not appropriate.

FWIW I would do a controlled crying or similar method if I was you, and yes do it when dp is around to share and help!

Good luck.

doris, doris, doris... I speak with the conviction of the newly converted... My youngest DS just over 15 months was BF to sleep and many many times in the night until VERY recently (two weeks ago).

When he was little he co-slept; then we shifted to a half and half thing - in cot till first waking then in with me. Since his first birthday, sleep became a NIGHTMARE.... feeding/sucking for hours and hours then refusing to be put back in his cot. We were exhausted some nights he'd be awake for 4 hours and then crash just as we had to get the other guys up...

Do not believe in CC particularly but had no idea what to do. Tried wake to sleep method first: waking them before the times they normally wake for a feed. Rousing them or feeding them slightly then straight back. Didn't work - he did the same feed for hours then scream for hours.

So. We decided to do night weaning because I knew it was the BF he wanted for comfort but despite fact I wanted to BF I couldn't cope any longer with no sleep. Was VERY worried it would mean end of BF.

It. Has. Been. A. Revelation.

I have had more sleep in the last two weeks than the last 2 years.

Here's how it worked... First few nights, me and DH agreed I would feed up to 12 and after 6am only. In between he would go in. We also had a cup of milk on standby to make the transition a bit easier for him. First two nights were awful: he screamed non-stop for two hours first night - Dh wouldn't leave him, but he was so incensed that it wasn't me who had gone in, he would not be held by DH. I forced myself to sleep on the sofa with earplugs because I cannot bear it and would have gone in after 15 mins if I had to listen to it.

After the third night, I put him to bed as normal, with a nice long BF (we also tried to up the food and milk in the day to compensate for lost feeds in the night). Next coupla nights he woke at 11.30 for a feed and DH had to take over at midnight.

Guess what? The upset cut down to 15, then 10, then 5 minutes virtually overnight. DS became much happier in general to be comforted by DH tghan just me. And then, one night, he went to be at 7 and slept through till 7am! I was awake all night waiting for him to wake up!

Now, he still wakes up occasionally but one night in three he just mutters, cries gently once or twice, turns over and goes back to sleep. Another night in three he sleeps pretty much through. The third night, DH does have to go in and settle him but he does this not crying anymore and settles in 10 mins max.

And I'm still giving 3 BF a day: one when in from work, one before bed and one first thing in the morning.

We're all happy.

Well, except DH who is suffering a bit, but we've both agreed in the long run this is the best way as we needed to break the habit.

when i wanted to night wean dd i got dp to go in, she is in her own room, and if i went in i just told her "all gone" and offered water, she knows what all gone means cos we say it at mealtimes.
i would def move lo into own room.
i would also work on naps first, i am trying to get dd to settle herself for naps and put her down and tell her to lie down and then i leave the room for a minute then go back in whether she is crying or not so she knows i come back, now she just lies there instead of crying and a few times she has gone to sleep on her own so it seems to be working.

And I should also add, that on a few occasions since nightweaning DS has gone to sleep on his own in his cot too: we leave him and he cries for exactly one minute some evenings - any longer and we go in. It's not really crying either, more protesting...

And then he lies down, snuggles one of his bears under his arm, and goes to sleep! Not doing this every night though (he's too comatose often with the last BF and I am unwilling to wake him up just to put him to sleep again...)

Wow, thanks folks, it's great to hear your experiences.
Fattipuffs: he's sleeping in our room from, well, habit. And ease, I get more sleep this way! But I'm thinking I may have to steel myself for a few difficult nights to see an improvement in things. His daytime naps are actually ok length wise, it's just that I have to get him to sleep!

Psychobabble: it's awful isn't it? That feeling that they're so dependent on you, they can't go to sleep without you, they can't stay asleep without you. You can't even entertain the thought of a night out because you can't inflict this non-sleeping baby on anybody else, and yes, poor DP who never gets a look in. Sometimes I just think I must be really stupid for co-sleeping etc in the first place, because when you get really down you think "yes, they were right, I really have made a rod for my own back". But thinking about it, I wouldn't have done anything differently. And when you're shattered, it's difficult to get the energy up to tackle anything, especially with an older child. So you have my sympathies too!

WilfSell: Your tale is inspirational! It has similarities with the Jay Gordon method that Sputnik recommended (which I think I'm going to try). Was your ds already sleeping in his own room when you started? And I feel the same re bfeeding, so it's good to know you can get more sleep and carry on bfing for a while. It must be great to be able to sleep again!

Thanks again everyone.

ilovetochat - how old is your dd? That's good advice about naps. I was planning on solving night-times first, but naps are a problem too, when he goes to nursery, or his grandparents (or when I'm too shattered to walk him to sleep!). I think you're right about his own room too, I've been trying to read lots of books about going to bed, talking about having his own room, and his own bed, so maybe now is the time!

wilf - the reason I posted was to hear stories like yours, so thankyou! and congratulations!

Yes, sometimes I think to myself that he's perfectly normal, and it's my expectations which are too high, but then I think, if this is normal, then it shouldn't make me feel like this. Also, I don't think I had huge expectations compared to most people, I wasn't expecting him to sleep though in a few months, for example (although I wouldn't have complained if he had!), but I just thought he'd sleep for a bit longer, and a bit longer, and maybe by the time he was one he'd be sleeping through.
And then there are all the other babies who sleep perfectly, and have done for months, and whose parents stare in disbelief if you ever make the mistake of admitting any of this!
So, not always easy to tell yourself it's normal. But as you say, probably depends on how well supported/surrounded you are.

Hi daringdoris - I really feel for you. I'm not a CC fan (hence doing NCSS with DD at 5 mths on another thread!), but with DS I was co-sleeping with him at 2 yrs (not from choice). Wasn't feeding him at that point, but he needed cuddles to sleep from about 11/12 pm ish. When I got pregnant I couldn't face the sleep hell, and needed him to sleep through.

We explained to him that he had to stay in his room (he was in a big bed, which we would join him in half way through the night) and me and DP had to sleep in our bedroom. If he stayed in his room for the whole night he would get a wall sticker. If he came out of the room he would be returned to his bed immediately. DP did that - I was no good at staying calm. The first time he got out immediately, but after a few returns he then cried in his bed. DP would go into him after exactly 60 seconds(our limit on crying) and comfort him, then leave, telling him how well he was doing staying in his bed. He got a sticker every morning for waking up in his own room, having slept on his own. I hated the crying, but he'd started screaming tantrums in the day, and it felt very similar (i.e. frustration and anger, not extreme distress). First night he was returned and comforted at 1 min intervals for just over an hour, second night it was 45 mins (but much less distress, just grumbling), second night a 10 minute half hearted attempt, then has slept through (barring nightmares, illness etc.) ever since. I couldn't have left him to cry longer than a minute, and it wasn't necessary. He was also inordinately proud of the stickers he got for sleeping in his own room. So I had 6 mths of lovely sleeping nights before pregnancy discomfort and then baby returned me to sleep-hell!

I think with older ones it helps to compare the protests with tantrums, and realise they have language and can understand the point of things, plus can really get a lot out of praise and success. Good luck, hope you find something that works for you and your family.

Doris, have you read the No Cry Sleep Solution?
It's not a magic solution but there are lots of good ideas to try. She also wrote a book for toddlers.

I have co-slept and bf with both mine, and not regretted a moment of it, infact my DS is 17 months and we are still going. As it happens my DD was a crap sleeper and DS has been much easier, it's really the luck of the draw and not really down to parenting. Anyway, I used some of the NCSS methods with DD and they seemed to help gradually, and when she was about 18 months I started refusing to feed her at night. I expected a huge fuss tbh but it was much easier than I expected. The same thing when I stopped feeding her to seep at bedtime when she was two, she got pretty angry the first night and it was upsetting, but that was it, she was fine after that.

So really what I'm trying to say here is that, having re-read your op, if you are feeling on the verge of depression it is so worth doing something about this. There is a world of difference between leaving, say, a six month old to cry and refusing to night feed a 20 month old. At this age they can understand and accept a cuddle instead, they won't feel the same level of abandonment, and they will get over it very quickly. I really though my DD would never forgive me, but I promise that 3 days later it was like nothing had happened!

Kayjayel has beaten me to it with the NCSS.
I also forgot to add that DD is now 4 and a great sleeper!

Good advice on this thread. Did cc with 18mo DS about a month ago. We had one night of hell during which I seriously thought about divorce so I could go back to my co-sleeping continual feeding ways. We all hated it.
The next night was so much better...and the next and the next... can't remember the details but he now sleeps all night in his cot, sometimes sleeping all night, sometimes waking for one feed at around 4. When he goes to bed I can put him down and leave him, he grumbles for about 5 mins then sleeps. It's a revelation and it's been fantastic.
However, we have tried cc at points of desperation in the past and they have never worked. I really feel that he's now old enough to understand we love him and haven't abandoned him.
Still fed to sleep though - no help there, sorry

Sorry, he's 19mo now, was 18mo when we did the CC
Forgot to say that the only times we've tried it in the past it's sometimes meant that he sleeps longer but is angry and grouchy in the moring. He now wakes up happy I also only leave him to cry when I can tell he's doing his "grumble" I get up and feed him if he;s crying for a feed and I bring him into our bed if he's teething / really upset (nightmare?) or ill - that happens less than once a week probably.

Thankyou all for your continuing advice, you are all making me feel much better!

Sputnik, and Kayjayel, I've got the NCSS, but I've never seemed to have any sucess with it, I don't know whether it's because DS is too determined, or whether I didn't follow her instructions as strictly as she suggests!

I think first I'm going to do as you did, Sputnik, and see what happens if I refuse to feed him at night. Then depending on how that goes, on Friday (when DP will have finished his morning shifts for a while!), try an approach inspired by Dr Jay Gordon/Wilfsell/Kayjayel.

I'll let you know how I get on.

I had this with my DD minus the breastfeeding as I had stopped breast feeding by the time we tackled it. However, there is absolutely no reason for still breastfeeding at night at this age they can easily manage the night but obviously it is more a habit now than a need.

At 20-21 months we were in the same position. I was so stressed from lack of sleep I actually gave up my job as I was too exhausted. Finally I could tackle the nights previously we had tried the NCSS too with no success. I had also tried gradual withdrawal from her room but again no success. It finally came down to we were going to have to leave her to it. My DH and I agreed on our strategy and implemented a very regimented bedtime routine. Bath, bottle, 2 stories and then bed. We also agreed on saying exactly the same 'script' to her before we left the room. But that is what we did. We also explained to her what we were going to do beforehand. Then we left the room shutting the door behind us. It felt awful but I stayed upstairs and at times reassured her through the door but at no time did I go back in. We had a week of hell, it gets worse before it gets better and there were times I lay sobbing on my bed but and this is the biggest BUT it worked and we have never looked back.

She is now 2 and a half and she never wakes in the night but if she did she knows how to get herself back off. Last night she slept until 8.30. WOW!!! I now have a new and better job and feel so refreshed and so much less stressed. You have to keep your end goal in your head because it will be hard work but it will be so worth it. Let us know how you get on!

Daring - dd is 16 months and i night weaned at 12 months although she had done it herself mostly. from 1 i felt she didn't need the milk at night so i just offered water so if she was genuinely thirsty she could have a drink, if it was comfort then this needed breaking in my opinion.
first thing in the morning she gets in our bed and has a bf but then all day just water till bedtime bf.
she still woke up 4 times last nigt though and settled back as soon as one of us went in, just a reassurance i think.

I'm really glad to read this thread tonight daringdoris, as we had started night-weaning ds, who is nearly 12 months, a couple of weeks ago, and got down from 3-4 breastfeeds per night to only one feed per night.

Then he was ill with a fever for 4 or 5 nights and couldnt sleep and we were back to cuddling and feeding etc.

He's better now but waking regularly in the night again, and last night when dh went in one time he cried for about 40mins and woke dd up too. Thinking we need to go back to our plan and just stop feeding in the night. Its awful hearing them cry isnt it? I was on the landing 4 times last night about to go into the room and just stick him on the boob to get him back to sleep, but had to stop myself.

We have same problem with daytime naps - he no longer goes off on the boob consistently. We had to give up on trying to settle in cot. Now trying pushchairing to sleep in the house but he is resisting even when really tired and just sits forward in the buggy until sleep gets the better of him. Then only sleeps 30 minutes. He starts with childminder next week and I dont think she will be able to stand there shugging the pushchair for 20 minutes twice a day.

Reading what you said in your op I could really recognise myself 4 months ago (DD now 19mo). I too was irritable and tearful constantly and wondering if i was depressed. In fact my boss told me to go to the GP as I was bursting into tears at work.

Having got DD now sleeping 8-6 in her own cot I feel like a new woman.

As others have said step no. 1 was stopping bf at night. She was still bf to sleep but then no bf until 6am. She could have milk from a cup but in fact always refused. DH went to her and rocked, cuddled I lay in bed trying not to cry. At first yes she was really angry and cries of mummy, mummy, milky were quite heartrending but it was literally only a few nights before she accepted cuddles instead.

At first it did not feel like much of a gain especially for DH as she still woke and he had to get up but gradually it did reduce and he stopped picking her up and just stroked her in the cot. Finally joy of joys she slept through! Took at least a month though.

It went the other way for a while and she then would not want me to comfort her at night which was quite hurtful.

Next we tackled going to sleep. She is used to cows milk from a cup in the day and to my surprise she would accept this from DH if I wasn't there and then he would rock her to sleep. He then sort of gradually reduced rocking and replaced with stroking and she will now go to sleep for night or naps with one of us stroking her back (or even a babysitter actually so we can finally go out!!).

This did all mean the end of bf for us sadly. I had hoped to carry on with one feed in the am but she just wasn't bothered any more.

It did mean a lot of work for DH in all this. My part of the bargain was always get up with her at 6am and let him lie in and always cook dinner whilst he put her to bed.

PS re: nursery/CM.

I was v. worried about same issue when DD went to CM at 9mo ie DD would never sleep for me without rocking or bf but amazingly she just slept for CM!

At first CM rocked her in the buggy then gradually reduced rocking and within a few weeks she was happily going down in the cot for her although never for me.