In with Baby till 6 month debate!!??

[RosiePierce]

Anyone else tearing their hair out with this one?

My little girl is nearly 5 mnths, goes down like a dream from 7pm, has started to sleep through apart from wanting a mini feed at about 2am, has about 4 fl oz of formula, then sleeps till 6:30am ish... all sounds good so far!! However, she seems to be an active sleeper who fidgets a lot, gabbles and laughs in her sleep.

What I'm basically getting at is that both my Husband and I are light sleepers and we're exhausted! We've now resorted to sleeping in different rooms and taking it in turns to do the night shift so we're at least getting a bit of shut eye. I have long felt ready to move back into our own room but HV says we have to stay in with her till she's at least 6 months old to protect against SIDS! Now I do buy into this to a certain extent if your baby was prem, born with breathing difficulties, lives in smoking household, hasn't been breast fed, parents haven't taken action against over heating, hasn't been put on her back to sleep, covers going over babies face, or little one has shown signs of illness etc...

I'm sure your parents like mine put us down in our cots from wks old not having all the info like we do today, no monitors, and we're fine! Part of me thinks no one knows what happens with SIDS ie do these poor little ones cry out for help, or make noises of distress, or mearly pass away without making a sound to alert their sleeping parents in the same room.. who knows!!??

Currently I'm on another set of antibiotics to fight off a water infection, and have had several other infections that I've needed treatment for, never been to the docs so much in my life! can't help but think me being sooooo run down is making me prone to picking up nasties and worry with winter coming that I'm going to pass this onto my little sweet pea, thus coursing more probs!? Plus as my husband and I are so shattered we're really starting to snap at each other which is really upsetting, and we have no family round us to relieve the pressure. I can't seem to sleep during the day and my husband has a very stressful job.

Have expressed this all to the HV, but all she seems to come out with "well if you're happy to put your daughter at risk for a bit of shut eye for 5 wks..."

Please give me your thoughts, own stories, help or advise, I'm grabbing at the last straw!!!!!!

Sorry for the long thread, it's more like a cloth of material.

Although the advice is 6 months, I understood that the cot death risk rapidly decreases after 4 months. We were planning to move our DS (currently 8 weeks) into his own room at about 4.5 months as he is a noisy sleeper too - scenario very similar to yours.

Having said that - 4 or 5 weeks will go fairly quickly if you're really concerned about dd moving just yet.

Good question Divvy.

I'm assuming that given the study is into SIDS, the researchers excluded other causes of death (e.g. suffocation) otherwise it would just be a generic study of infant mortality rather than SIDS. It may be, I guess, that if they were unable to attribute a specific cause of death, even if the likely explanation was suffocation, they then register as SIDS.

It does seem as though some courses of death are given the label sids, where as the definition sudden infant death synd know one actually knows really what takes place, and that's what's so scary! hence the threat is so strong by health care officials, plus lets not forget they're covering their own backs when it comes to giving advice so they don't get law suits!

i also think that people forget it really is very rare, we live in a very fretful world now unfortunately, our parents wouldn't have been so fearful thus enjoying parent hood more, and trusting their own instincts!!

We moved DS into his own room at 3 months however, I can see his cot from my bed. This move came as a result of me crashing the car through excessive tiredness. DS is also a very noisy sleeper Drove into the barriers of a level crossing. I just can't think about what would have happened if this had been minutes later as the local train would have wiped us out.

My Consultant also said to me that yes, in an ideal world babies would be in the same room until 6 months old however, he also said that cot death just doesn't happen at night. It can happen during the day which also includes driving in the car or a nap time. You then look at parents who return to work before 6 months and that it could happen in nursery or at the childminders or even on a trip in the car. Yes, you can take precautions but at the end of the day you really can't prevent cot death from happening. He was very blunt with me. At the end of the day you need to make a decision yourself and not make your decision based on what people on here say you should or should not do.

It always struck me that the advice on room-sharing was thin (i.e. I think there is a debate!). Plenty of evidence on bed-sharing and smoking and sleeping on the back - just not much on room-sharing. I did some digging for a previous thread: the American Academy of Pediatrics found the evidence strong enough to recommend room sharing.

However, following up their references, I found this: "Sleeping in a separate room did not appear to be associated either with risk or protection unless at least one parent was a smoker, in which case it appeared to increase risk. Although this appears counter intuitive, one possible explanation is that a 'deficient hypoxia awakening response' among infants of smoking mothers may be ameliorated by the increased sensory stimulation in room with parents." It's from this paper. So that's where the generally proffered explanation comes from, but the causality is really just a complete guess on the part of the researchers.

I'm reaching the limits of my statistical knowledge here, but the evidence doesn't seem overwhelming to me. Doesn't help that the paper is mostly about bed-sharing, and less about room-sharing, but still...

So...are you room sharing unclefluffy, and is this something you've been weighing up in you mind also before this debate?

Rosie - baby's due in three weeks, and I'm more worried about breast-feeding, nappy-changing and what babies wear on their bottom halves when you put them in those little all-in-ones with no legs, to be honest!

The Spud will be in with us if that works, and not if it doesn't - personally I'm keen for the baby to be close enough to my breasts that I don't actually have to get out of bed to feed. I'm satisfied (after more searching than was strictly necessary) that Spud will be pretty much as safe in the next room as in ours if it turns out that we can't get to sleep in the same room.

THe point of the SIDS advice is to Reduce the risk of your baby dying suddenly and unexpectedly and there is ample evidence that sharing a room with your baby for the first 6 months reduces the risk.

In response to the person who said that there is no evidence that putting a baby in its own room reduces the risk, there is. None of the SIDS advice is given unless it is backed up by research and the CESDI study (Confidential enquiry into sudden death in infancy) showed that babies who sleep in their own room are at 10 times the risk compared to babies who sleep in a cot in their parents room for the first 6 months.

Sofa sleeping increases that risk nearly 50 times. Again backed up by the same study.

It's no coincidence that cot deaths dropped from 200 a year to 250 a year when parents were advised to sleep their babies on their backs.

The risk of SIDS decreases from 4 months and the risk is very low by 6 months. If you do decide to move your baby then make sure that you follow all the other advice so, don't allow anyone to smoke in the house, keep the room cool, 16-20 degrees is optimum, don't have toys, pillows or duvets in the cot, keep the baby's head uncovered, put him on his back and put him in the feet to foot position. I'd also consider keeping both your s and his bedroom door open.

unclefluffy - if you do decide to co-sleep, here are my tips for how to achieve it as safely as poss (i.e. what I did):

1. have something either side of the bed to stop lo rolling out/ being pushed out
2. don't let the duvet go over lo, have a separate blanket for lo
3. sleep with one arm extended above lo's head - this makes rolling onto lo physically impossible without breaking your shoulder!
4. keep the pillows away from lo
5. (optional) let OH sleep elsewhere - gives more room for you and lo!

Good luck - hope you have a good birth and enjoy lo when he/she comes along.

Dannyb - where is the information to suggest a ten times risk for not room sharing?

This is from the report from the end of the three year CESDI study (I think). Pages 56, 57 and 58 seem to be the relevant ones. I'm really not sure I'm reading it right, but it looks the risk may be twice for non-room-sharers vs. room-sharing-non-bed-sharers. Maybe a statistician can help me sort this one out? Dannyb do you understand the report?

Also - is there anything in there about keeping the bedroom doors open...? Or did you just throw that in yourself? I'm not saying the advice is wrong - I just think it's bandied around unthinkingly (like that bit about doors - is there really seriously any statistically significant evidence about doors and SIDS?). People like the OP are given orders by HPs out of all proportion with the real risks involved.

I just like to know where advice comes from - we get wound up by HVs recommending formula top-ups or what-have-you, and I think we should get equally wound up by stuff like this. Because it's stuff like this that keeps mums feeling guilty and insecure.

I was typing when you posted orinoco! I'm not actually intending to share a sleep surface with the babe (get me and the technical jargon - can you tell I've been reading flippin' medical reports?). Not sure I'd sleep that well! I was picturing Short Stuff in a carrycot by the side of the bed, tbh. Hopefully that would make breastfeeding a lean-scoop-feed-lean-settle manoeuvre. But then this is my first, so I really have no idea about the practicalities. I just turn into a total unforgiveable pedant around medical advice!

unclefluffy, i think the open doors thing is just so you can potentially hear anything odd - a couple of times, DS made an odd squeak and i was out of my bed and in his room faster than blinking (but then he normally sleeps silently).
Before he was born i had zero intention of co-sleeping, we just fell into it, partly cos of bf'ing difficulties and it was just fine (non-wriggly, non-snuffly baby though!)

Orinoco - that's exactly what I mean about the practicalities! The chance of my plans standing up in the face of a real live actual baby are very slim indeed!

Yep the peak risk of cot death is from 2-4 months, I'd consider moving our DD (4 months) into her own room now except its a long way from our room so I'd need a monitor on, which would defeat the object. DP is currently in the nursery (snorer) so the current arrangement works best for all of us!

I havent seen a HV since day 10... Where do you see them? Is it at the weighing clinic? I havent taken my DD as there's no doubt she's gaining enough plus I weigh her at home for my own curiousity

Unclefluffy - We had our wee girl (get this) in her small moses basket in our bed, up against the wall, me in the middle and my DH on the other side as we didn't have a stand that would have her next to the bed, and her cot was too far for me to keep getting up to breast feed as had a c section! Also didn't feel comfortable co sleeping in the same bed as she just felt way to tiny and worried i would roll over even though seemed unlikely, plus meant the covers wouldn't go anywhere near her!! Seemed to make the transfer to her cot easy as well, just kept her in her moses basket and plonked her in cot, then when she was too big for her basket we took it away and she was already fine with her surroundings... worked like a dream!!! I know it all sounds bonkers but worked for me.

later, co slept for a bit when she was about 3 months as she could hear us and would much rather be with us than on her own, soon we all got a bit sick of that because it wasn't solving anything. When I knew she wasn't hungry, had a clean nappy, no wind, hot nor cold, had a bit of a cuddle etc and heard a difference in shout out ie wasn't distressed, but would have a little moan I'd leave her for a few mins, go to the cot, put her dummy back in, stroke her head then walk away, she soon got the jist. Now we're where we are now...

Oh, I'm surprised no one has said anything about dummies, can also help to provent SIDS, HV agreed - Swiss actively advise new parents to use them! People over hear say they can make breast feeding difficult but I had no probs.

For a start you need to realise that HVs are only allowed to spin the politically correct line. They are only ever allowed to point out the SIDS guidelines, promote bf etc etc My experience is that they are only there to help you in a very limited capacity.

You and your dh obviously are well informed of the risks that accompany your decision and only you two can reach it.

Fwiw with ds1 I had 3 days of hell in a hospital room alone with him. We lasted 2 hours sharing a room the first night when we got home. Ds2 got put straight into his brothers room the day he was born. I know plenty of people will think it was the wrong decision, but it was the right one for us. I seem to have an instinct that wakes me at the slightest where the boys are concerned too (they're just across the landing from us), so do feel they're not far away.

Unclefluffy if you would like to CAT Me I can give you more information

I agree yomellamoHelly, HV's are meant to be there if and when you need them! I believe their "advice" comes across as dictorial, and makes parents question their own judgement and instincts.

I don't go to them for advice as I'm happy with my own judgment, and funnily enough it's only this issue I'm questioning, and why... because he HV was very stern with her "recommendation".

danny b - I don't have CAT (tbh, I don't even know what it stands for!). The info isn't available publicly, on a website you can link to? I have tried quite hard to find good evidence - your suggestion to look at CESDI has produced a little gem (thank you - you did better than me!) but it doesn't really agree with your 10x assertion. Assuming I am understanding odds ratios correctly, that is. The other trouble, of course, is that there are only 300-ish SIDS deaths in the UK annually (thank goodness) so it's pretty hard to draw firm conclusions from such a small sample (not least because no-one know's why it's happening).

Incidentally, I take back my incredibly sarkie comment about doors - turns out there is some study evidence from CESDI about doors! It doesn't have odds ratios like the other major environmental evidence, though, so it's hard to draw a conclusion. As I understand it, you can't rely on the fact that a higher proportion of SIDS infants than controls slept behind closed doors.

Rosie - I was thinking about dummies too! It's a pretty clear demo of how we (I mean all of us, not just MNers) choose to ignore evidence that doesn't suit us!

OK, so I'm obsessed with evidence. I'm starting a stats degree next year, which I suspect will only make me worse!

I think I sounds like you've got it all sorted to be frank unclefluffy ready for wee spud! Wish I could say I did as much research as you, but to be honest found some things far to overwhelming and scary, we live in such a culture of fear, and as both of us have pointed out SIDS is rare!

You're right, Rosie. I'm actually quite relaxed about the real size of the risk (endless rabbiting on about it not withstanding ). Don't worry, though - I'm still managing to be unreasonably nervous about my bump in crowds etc. so irrationality about my lovely wee Spud is alive and well!

Unclefluffy - I also felt really worried about my bump at the time, had had 4 let downs before Bron came along and terrified when I had a scan or midwifes appointment to hear heartbeat but all turned out brill!!

Did however get very fed up with being told to sleep constantly on my left side, watching what I ate or went near due to "advice", just made me feel even more anxious. Also other Mums used to royally pee me off with their scary stories of labour, and finding first 6 months of parenthood hell... that was the last thing I needed to hear as a first time mum.

My Mum, Sister (has 6 year old boy) and other friends were shocked to hear all the recommendations to have a healthy pregnancy, and even more shocked as to how to care for a baby ie sleeping on back, 6 month golden rule, dummies, noisy places to sleep, growth charts (assumed if they gained weight and were happy and healthy they were fine)! Most of this info is sooooo new, i think you need to take SOME (before I get stoned to death by other bloggers) of it with a pinch of salt and use commonsence.

Unclefluffy - when's bump due, and guess you don't know the sex if your calling them spud?

Rosie - Spud is due 9th November, but I'm half expecting to go longer than that. The sonographer wasn't totally confident about Spud's gender (doesn't really seem to like being examined!) so although we have a reasonable idea, we're trying not to commit to it in our heads! We have a name ready for each, but she's probably a little girl.

My sister-in-law has three, with a long-ish gap between numbers one and two, and I think she found it a bit of a shock how much had changed. She's lovely, and I feel better knowing that she'll be on the other end of the phone if I get myself overly worked up about anything. I know what you mean about the profusion of advice - my midwife has been very restrained, but there's a lot of information floating around, and not all of it is useful.

Hope you and your other half manage to get some decent sleeping done!

I put both our children in their own rooms. The first at 2 weeks and the second at two months and they were grand. Love their murseries and are happy to be in there. The six month thing is only for guidance. You need your sleep. You'll be better for it and in turn you'll probably be a better parent for it. (not that you aren't one already!)