Sleep depriving tiny babies is cruel

[PathofLeastResistance]

I need to vent on this and say stuff I feel I can never say to people?s faces.

Sleep is needed for cognitive development and sleep deprivation is used as torture yet noone teaches parents about it, except to what to do when they?re older and have established problems. Babies need an incredible amount of sleep and there are detrimental consequences for them if they don?t get what they need. Breastfeeding introduces challenges to help them get the sleep they need and I wish I?d known what I know now before I had my first baby. Many first time mothers (me included) never consider their babies sleep requirements and are never advised on it. We took our babies out wherever we went leaving them to sleep whenever they could. When they cried from tiredness we would misinterpret their cries as hunger or boredom and feed them or produce some new plastic toy to dazzle them with.
They then would develop a wide eyed exhausted gaze which would cause people to comment on how ?they?re taking it all in? when they?re actually overwhelmed.

It is amazing quite how much sleep little babies need. Before 12 weeks they need about 16 hours a day . My 9 wk old feeds about 7 times in 24 hours taking a total of 5 hours 15mins. Assuming he goes straight back to sleep after his night feeds and one day feed. Then after the other 4 day feeds he has 40mins before he needs to be asleep and as it can take 10mins to get him to sleep he can only really be awake 30 mins after a feed. Ime babies under 2 months can stay awake for a max of between 1 and 2 hours. If kept awake longer than that period they not only struggle to sleep immediately after but also struggle to sleep in the evening, for the night.

I do realise that the first few weeks when establishing breastfeeding are an exception. Until breastfeeding is established the baby by definition isn?t full and they have to work at increasing your supply. Living with a hungry baby is really hard and they inevitably can?t get the sleep they need while they need to be awake and feeding constantly or else when they sleep only briefly before waking hungry. One problem in parents? perception after these weeks is that their baby can?t sleep and we become quite used to having an awake baby for company. The baby then cluster feeds due to the sleep deprivation and the mother is left thinking there is no time between feeds to bother trying for a nap. I remember myself and other mums at the time commenting on how our babies didn?t sleep anything like the amount the books suggested (as if that was their fault ) and we would miss our babies company if they slept more during the day!

However, once breastfeeding is established we should be trying much harder to get our babies to sleep in the day. My first was unable to sleep unaided, unless exhausted, after those first 6 weeks. She needed to be rocked and have a finger to suck before she would sleep. We naively only gave her the opportunity to sleep at night. It could then take up to 3 hours of various tactics before she eventually succumbed. Demand sleeping does not work . Babies need a quiet, dark, comfortable environment and many need help getting to sleep. We shouldn?t be offering them this only at the end of the day and we shouldn?t be left to learn it the hard way.

Vent over. Carry on.

I think I agree, certainly the bit about why its important to inform parents about establishing good sleep habits as much as about good feeding etc. There has been a bit of a fashion (less so recently, and probably more in London) of taking babies from very very young out to restaurants, parties what ever mum and dad are doing like they are a fashion accessory, and in a way that is pretty inappropriate for the baby's sleep needs - we have witnessed a lot of wired babies with parents really missing the signs, but there are a number of reasons why its hard to stick to nap times in the day:
1.needs of other children
2.noise of other children (its impossible in our flat to keep everyone quite enough)
3.Having to go out on errands etc

1. Having to go out so you don't go mad etc

That said, I have stayed in now pretty much for 4 months trying to get good naps and feeds sorted (DD will only feed when room is very quiet with no distractions) and working round her needs as much as poss (she goes to sleep in bed in the dark) and she still won't nap properly and wakes up to 4 times to feed in the night! And i have no idea how to sort it and its my second time and I promise I am trying very hard.

Totally agree... It does mean I'm virtually housebound but my DD's naps are very important and I do go to extreme lengths to protect them. I would add though that it is far easier to establish a good napping habit at around 12 weeks... before that I don't see a problem with letting them sleep on you or near you as long as they are getting a good few hours sleep during the day

I find there is a lot of pressure to be going out and doing "activities" but none of these activities fit into my DD's napping schedule... We just about managed to get out everyday for a walk between 2.30 and 5pm because she does her afternoon nap in her buggy.

I take your point about being housebound. I had a difficult start first time round and getting out and doing things was really important for my mental health. I just think that when you do make compromises you should do it with insight that it might not be best for baby and promise another day soon that will be.

BadgerQueen - sorry you're having such a hard time. They can be mysterious creatures sometimes can't they?

Plus we've had Thames Water digging up our roads, and now a neighbour having a loft conversion, for what seems like the entire 4 months of my baby's life... It drives me to distraction... Oh and my upstairs neighbour had a particularly heavy footed friend to stay this weekend!

Thanks for sympathy - mysterious they certainly are, but you know a lot of the time (erm, actually only today, last week I was wailing on strangers in the high street!) it doesn't feel like a hard time and we are very lucky that she does go down beautifully (ARGH now I have jinxed it!) each evening - with my first we never even managed that, but other times the yearning for some order and/or freedom (I really don't expect both!) is overwhelming - that is about my need, tho', and not hers.

There are so many issues surrounding this and there is so much conflicting advice, to the extent that I think we stop looking at and listening to our own babies and try to make them fit the plans in the books. I stand by your point that they do need a huge amount of sleep (and to a much later age that we expect - a short nap at 4 to 6 really would be a good thing for a lot of kids) but "fit" ie how babies slot into your life and patterns is an important aspect, and when they don't seem to "fit" - it seems to me that its the babies very often who are made to compromise.

Anyway I saw a good site with some very nice supportive advice called Familysleep.com, naturally I have failed to implement it as other things got in the way.....

Becky77 - so sorry about the noise, we have had very similar stuff this year, it makes you insane if you start to focus on it.

erk there she is awake again, off i go.

I get your point about trying too hard to make them fit with the book (and I have a particular book in mind). But I think that is partly because that book is the only one that addresses the issue of total sleep requirements at all. I found gf really useful for dd1. It didn't fit her but it was so much better than what we had been doing that it was an improvement. With dd2 I tried again and found myself keeping her awake to fit the book - which I really regret doing - she clearly needed more sleep than the book said. Now with ds1 I have finally cracked it (so far). You are right about learning fro our babies but it has taken me 3 to realise what the signals mean.

I remember with dd1 trying gf for the first time at 6 weeks. She was up at 7 and at 8.30am started yawning. I was so amazed that she was getting tired when the book said she should be. Before then I had never even looked for a yawn . So at least it alerted me to how to read my baby.

I agree to a point but babies do also have to fit in around the rest of the family's schedule as well. It wouldn't be fair on ds if I were to stop taking him to playgroups because baby #2 needed a nap. Not sure how that's going to work in practice mind you, but literally everything stopped to suit ds when he was little and I just won't be able to do that again!

Absolutely agree about the importance of naps -- to the point that I am known as a nap nazi. Even my mother-in-law is telling to relax. Well people can think what they like. I know DD needs her sleep!

I just had a plumber around fixing our boiler and I made him whisper and tip toe around as DD is still sleeping

I found you-know-who briefly useful the first time round - just in terms of amounts of sleep, food etc, but will leave my comments there as I think we aren't allowed to talk about her on MN.

I have no idea how you make everything fit bluemouse - DD2 has just dropped off because she only slept for 20mins at lunch time and now I have to wake her (after 10 minutes) to pick DD1 from school, how rubbish is that? I presume skilled mothers (not me) gently nudge the naps to a time that suits - but how they do it seems like magic to me. mookickkick could you come and sort us out please?

Oh BTW, I read something that said that the reason teenagers sleep so much is because their brains are developing and changing as much as a toddlers - so they really need their sleep too and it should be encouraged! Incredible huh?

I think this is a very important point to make and you should re-post it with a thread title so that more people read it.

I think people are very caught up with feeding and forget about the sleeping and then everybody's exhausted.

I found one piece of advice from She Who Must Not be Named to be very useful: babies need sleep every 2 hours. This was true for dd up to at least 6 months old.

Yes I messed up the title and asked mumsnet to add it. Seeing as they didn't I am going to repost.

i agree with this completely - when DD was first born, i would refuse to let people see her if she was napping. i sometimes wonder if that was taking it a bit far

anyway, DD is now 10 months and got 4 teeth coming through, so for a couple of weeks now has hardly napped at all. it is horrendous. i really do try everything, including leaving her for a bit to cry and see if she settles. no luck - nada, zip

we also live in london, and never considered my street noisy until we had a baby - i've lost count of the number of times ice cream vans/kids shouting/car doors slamming/people shouting into their phones/shoving leaflets through our door have woken her

i think sleep is the most important thing in the world for her - when she's had a good kip, she often wakes up and is temporarily a genius baby, doing all sorts of clever new things. when she's tired, she gets visibly clumsy

reposted and got very different responses. Hey ho.

Oh dear - just looked at other thread - it really kicked off didn't it? Are you okay? The personal stuff is a bit major - I am being v. cowardly as I am too scared to post on there. I didn't think you were saying anything that attacked breastfeeding or co-sleeping or were advocating controlled crying (I hope not) - but you seem to have raised a lot of hackles (I managed to do this inadvertantly once and got a load of "helpful" comments)- it seems to get like this on MN sometimes, everyone is so defensive of their own choices - just making a general point about sleep and babies needing it. I have to say I am pretty obsessed with sleep, whether we have have a new LO in the house or not and as pinata says just the volume and frequency of disturbances even as an adult drives me mad. I really don't think GF has the solution (as there really isn't one)and am not keen on her methods, but there is very good research out there to show the benefits/crucialness of sleep at all ages.

Wishing you peaceful nights and hoping you are not feeling too bashed about.

Ooer, just looked at the thread title - I think cruel was a bit strong, when most people are just doing it inadvertantly, otherwise I'm standing by you!

thanks BadgerQueen - I def regret using the word cruel!
I actually have been tied up with kids who are now in bed so have only just got back to the really personal venom.

I actually am not using Gina Ford - although I have tried in the past. It's interesting how any talk of getting your child to sleep makes people assume you are a Gina Ford / controlled crying / ff bitch. I guess the problem is that her book is one of very few that address the issue.

Thanks for your support - much needed.

i'm with you too - can't quite believe the extent to which the other thread kicked off tbh - there are lots of people who ignore the fact their baby needs to sleep, i think everyone on thread b) just jumped on some sort of bandwagon

i often see poor little mites being passed round, taken to the shops or expected to sleep in a room full of people, and then being miserable. as i said, i took it to the other extreme of people coming round and then leaving again without seeing the baby

anyway, as MrsB said, hope you don't feel too attacked. what you said is perfectly fair enough

ooh, didn't think you were being controversial at all.. off to read other thread now!!