good news!! my owl-like 3 year old is suddenly sleeping through from 8.00pm to 7.00am Here's why ( I think)....

[tigermoth]

Taking that saying to heart - 'don't tell me the problem, tell me the solution' here's a message to anyone who has a late-to-bed light sleeping 3 year old:

Up till new year, it was a miracle if I could get my toddler to sleep before 9.00 any night. Then he started a new nursery - hours from 9.30 to 3.00 - on the first day he arrived home and fell asleep at 5.30 and was totally unrousable.

Thinking it was due to first day fatigue, I put him to bed and expected him to get up later - he didn't, though briefly woke up for a quick drink around midnight. The next few days were the same - suddenly, literally overnight, his sleep routine changed from owl to lark. We are now moderationg this routine and he has been going to bed betweeen 6.30 and 8.00. - waking up around 7.00 am. Perfect for me, and all it took was a strenuous nursery day to change the habit of a year or two. I'm crossing my fingers the new sleep routine remains. It feels so wierd to have no toddler running around at 8.30 pm every night, wierd but nice!!

Anyway, if you have a late sleeping toddler, hang in there and wait for nursery to begin - hopefully like me you will see a significant change.

Oh wonderful, Tigermoth. It must be brilliant! Long may it continue for you.

Bet it's changed your life tigermoth! Good news, I remember all the escapology etc a while ago!

oh brilliant to hear some good news especially on this subject

Fab Tigermoth ! I used to really feel for you when you were describing the hassles before - particularly because you've always come up with good advice for me and I've never been able to reciprocate. Hope it lasts and you and dh are able to enjoy it !

Glad to hear this tigermoth, the time I get to myself in the evenings is so precious, and yet I've always taken it for granted. It must seem even more precious when you've had to fight for it. I'm really not looking forward to dds getting older and being allowed to stay up past 7:30.

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thanks all - I do hope the change is permanent, because as you say emsiewill, time to myself in hte evening is precious. It's also nice to have time to concentrate on my oldest ds before he goes to bed.

The change really does seem to be nursery linked. At the weekend, my toddler is less sleepy in the evening, despite my best efforts at tiring him out, though he is still going to bed earlier than before. It's funny really because all his nursery consists of is two large rooms and a small playground. I know he runs around a lot there but he's hardly doing a marathon. Perhaps it's the mental stimulaton, but then I thought I gave him enough of that at home.

Anyway, I will not analyse any more - I'm just grateful for the change.

Maybe it's the slightly different stimulus of spending more time with his little peers and having to maintain a relationship with more than one person at once...? Fantastic news Tigermoth, and I am pea green with envy!

Oh, so pleased for you tigermoth! Don't know how people cope with kids up in the evening.

tigermoth - very similar here although it is more like 10pm or even 10.30pm. A couple of days ago there was a miracle though a bit like you. Not really a drastic change like you but a couple of tiring days and then no afternoon nap and ds (aged 3.5)was really acting up so I put him to bed at 6.30 and he slept right through till 6am following moring. (sorry if I am boring anyone as I posted this on another board).

Anyway he has never in his life gone to bed at 6.30 and although I didn't like getting up so early it was WONDERFUL having a whole evening. The following day I kept him awake and although he was a bit unbearable towards bedtime I managed till 7pm and he slept till 6.45am this morning. However today it all fell through. Trouble is when he is tired he gets totally hyperactive which in turn tires him out even more and so on - viscious circle. He is a very active child anyway which can be exhausting at times. However having someone bouncing continually on the sofa or running around the room is just too much. I gave in at 3.45 today as I couldn't stand the thought of another 3 hours of that. Left him to sleep for 2 hours and he is now nice and calm again BUT what time will he go to bed tonight (having got up at 6pm)?

Any ideas about what to do - it looks like he still needs a daytime nap but when and how long? When is he likely to grow out of this? Tiring him out isn't the problem - it seems to be the opposite in that he gets too tired too soon.

congrats tigermoth, I am sure its the stimulation of other kids around - having to be 'on' all the time if you know what I mean. His bed probably seems like a thankful peaceful haven after the hubbub of nursery! I even notice my 3 month old is so much more tired after a day of meeting lots of new people and being talked to, so I'm sure it must be the same with toddlers - well done you.

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eulaila, my toddler still gets hyperactive when tired - he sounds much like yours. He still wants a nap but I have noticed the danger time is getting later and later - ie he'll try and zonk out about 5.30 ish. This also happened with my oldest son at that age. The trick was to keep him awake until say 6.30 doing something that was not busy, like watching quiet tv or reading a book to him then go straight into the bedtime routine. But much, much easier said than done. It gradually got better so by the time he started school, day naps were a thing of the past. It is a problem, and I am not over this with the three year old yet.

Enid and Marina I agree. It's the social life at nursery that is wearing him out I think. Too much partying for one so young Hope this week is as good as the last.

tigermoth and bloss thanks for your responses and sorry to be late getting back. I have tried the quiet time but that doesn't always work - one day I left him in my bedroom watching TV and went up and found him jumping up and down on the bed! I've more or less given up trying to instill a routine and feel I am sometimes just pushing against the grain. His natural routine seems to be bed about 9.30pm up at 8.30am sometimes 10pm/9am and then a 1-2 hr nap daytime. However some days if he's up fairly late I can stretch him without a nap and get him to bed about 8pm but as I say he's pretty unbearable by then. The last few days he's had naps and has been much better behaved at his groups.

Also in some ways it is better with the nap as he's calm for DH coming home at 6pm. Also there isn't much point in him getting up much before 8 as his playgroup and other groups don't start till 9.30am. I'd still rather it was maybe 9-8am though so I can have a couple of hours to myself before bed or at least before DH falls asleep on the sofa...but that is another story!!

my toddler's routine was the same eulalia- in bed 9.00ish up at 8.00ish, or in bed at 10.00ish and up at 9.00ish and this weekend (no nursery) we found ourselves reverting to it, then back to earlier nights again this week.

My toddler's behaviour goes on a downward spiral too when he misses a nap. I suppose you either choose to suffer the horrors of this, hoping for an early bedtime, or you choose to have a calmer, more rested toddler up for longer at night. In the end it's what suits you all - there's no right or wrong way. Today my toddler went to sleep at six thirty - he woke briefly at 9.00 - but I know I am in for an early morning (round about oh - 6.00 am I'd say). I could have woken him from his six thirty nap, but then he would have been lively for ages and I fancied a quiet evening. At least with an early morning wake up call, I get a peaceful hour or so on mumsnet while the toddler watches TV and I have plenty of time to get both sons ready for school and nursery.

The toddler's nap need will pass soon, I keep telling myself. Not long to go now....

tigermoth - yes sometimes we do have to rush a bit in the morning but around 6 would be too early as he'd tire himself out before we even got anywhere. I do quite like it if both are asleep having my breakfast in peace but I can't have it both ways! Iie peace at nighttime too)

I find it hard with the toilet training too as I have to put him in a nappy for a nap.

eulalia, my toddler was prone to fall back into a nap, too, if he got up very early in the morning, but he is growing out of this now. It really sounds as if your son still needs his nap - his sleep routines are so like my sons six months ago. I think my son's needs just began to change of their own accord - he can last the distance much better now. If my expereince is anything to go on, hopefully six months from now you will find the your son's sleep routine is easier.

At least one benefit of an early waking toddler is that their day nap is taken much earlier, so they have plenty of time to tire themselves out again before bedtime. Doesn't always work though!

How old exactly is your boy tigermoth?

He will be four in August, eulalia. Since christmas, he seems to be growing out of wanting day time naps every day without fail.

Before christmas, I had to make a big effort if I wanted to stop him drifting off in the afternoon. Now he might lie still watching a video for a quiet hour, but it is increasingly less likely to drop off to sleep. Still will do this on occasion, but not every time.

Thanks tigermoth - he is almost the same age as my ds (his b/d is in July). I have heard of some children having naps till they start school so I am just monitoring the situation. I kept him awake yesterday and he slept 7pm - 9.45am!!! (although he did wake at 1am for about half an hour) No nap today and going to try bed about 8pm. I think in light of some behavioural difficulties recently that he has been short of sleep.