"Normal" sleep for a three year old?

[janinlondon]

My three year old has never been a good sleeper. Most nights are broken, she still wets the bed occasionally, and she hasn't slept in the day for over a year. She goes to bed at 8, goes to sleep around 9, gets up for up to an hour at 3am and then finally gets out of bed at about 6. By my reckoning she is getting 9-10 hours sleep a day. Everything I've read says this is nowhere near enough, but I don't see what I can do if that's what she seems to need. I suppose I'm secretly hoping to be told that she needs more and be given a magic wand to make it happen so I have some time to myself, but I wondered if anyone else is in the same boat? Her nursery insists on her having a nap four days a week and it means bedtime is put back another hour (10pm!!). What is normal?

Blimey, janinlondon you sound very sane for someone whose had 3 years poor sleep. Going to sleep at 9pm is (I think) probably later than most 3 year olds.
What does she do at 3 am for an hour?
Why does her nursery insist on her having a nap 4 days a week?
There is another thread running about how much sleep a 3 yr old should have under the behaviour /development topics. Have a look at that and see what you think.

Ahh....but you haven't seen the state of me! Thanks for the tip. I'll go over and see if anyone else has the magic wand.

janinlondon - my dd (3) sleeps from around 8:30pm - 7:30am and no longer sleeps during the day. She usually wakes for some reason at around 5am but goes straight back to sleep. I would question the nursery about the daytime sleep - I am surprised they insist on it! It is strange your dd wakes at 3am - it must be difficult for you - do you get up with her? I would ask nursery to stop the daytime sleeps. good luck

Hi Janinlondon... the only thing I'd like to add... (having a 3yo who sleeps from 8PM to 730AM) - what does she do at 3AM? Could you be strict and work on her staying in bed, in the dark at 3? I suspect after a few days, she wouldn't wake up anymore and she might actually sleep better and earlier all together. The more daytime sleep she gets does NOT necessarily means later bed time! IMO!

Thanks everyone. I am having a battle with the nursery about the sleep thing. She is a wanderer -gets up and comes in to us. We ALWAYS put her straight back to bed. Sometimes up to eleven times. I've read all the books that say doing this should stop her, but she's been at it forever, so I don't see it stopping. When I ask her why she does it she says "Because Mummy I just love you SOO much and I want to talk to you." She's devious too - did I mention? (LOL)

janinlondon, your message has struck a chord with me, I too have a 3yr old who likes to be awake in the middle of the night. She always comes to our room, I send her straight back (with dd1, would have let her in our bed, but dd2 is a real nightmare to sleep with). Dh once commented that if I wake up in the night, I have trouble getting back to sleep, which is true, so there's no reason why she isn't that sort of person as well. So I try to persuade her to look at a book or something. We're sometimes successful with this method, and sometimes not. She has also started getting in bed with dd1, which is not really fair on her, so from tonight we're putting a stairgate on dd1's door - she can open it if she needs to get out, but dd2 can't open it to get in.
The only thing I console myself with is that it tends to go in phases - although having re-read your post, it doesn't sound like that's the case for you.
Sorry, I don't think I'm much help really, but I've never until now heard of another child that has this middle of the night insomnia thing.

Hi Janinlondon ...
I feel for you ... my ds was the model GF baby (7pm - 7am) until he was 2. He learned to climb out of his cot so we put him in a bed and have had not had a decent night's sleep since! Admittedly we have had a difficult year ... moved to NZ, stayed with in-laws for a couple of months, rented a house for 4 months, bought a house and after 2 months went back to the UK for a month for Xmas ...
I thought things would get better when we cut out the day time sleep (stopped that when he didn't go to sleep until 9 or 10pm) but he is a devious little so and so.
We have a bunny clock (Great Little Trading Company) which has helped in that he knows that he can't get up until the bunny wakes up but he uses every excuse under the sun to get around it ... I need a wee wee (wears a nappy in bed) ... I 'wuv' you mummy ... I want you mummy ... I can't see (has a night light) ... I want a drink ... I need my muzzy ... I don't like my bear ... etc etc.
The only thing that works, which some may think is a bit harsh, is the 'door shut' threat. If he gets out of bed then we shut his bedroom door ... which he hates more than anything. However there are nights when he calls out and then says he is being a good boy because he hasn't got out of bed (aaaagh!) I am up sometimes 5 or 6 times a night (once I counted 14 times in one night!)
Like you I worry about the fact that his maximum sleep is 10 and a half hours a night and from what I read and hear that is not enough ... BUT he is always chirpy and happy in the day time and is very rarely overtired .... so maybe the problem is ME, not him! Maybe the fact that I would like to be in bed later than 6am is the problem and I should just grin and bear it, go to bed earlier and live with it?????
If you have any magic solutions let me know because I will try them too!!
Good luck!

We use the "door shut" thing, too, Ghosty, glad to hear we're not the only ones. I also reassure myself with the fact that dd2 is a very happy, easy going child (it's just her mother who's a narky sod), she's doing everything she "should" be, so it's obviously not doing her any harm (wish the same could be said of me).

Glad I'm not the only one out there. We always have the door closed. She just opens it. So that's not a threat at all. Also have a bunny clock. She just tells us he's forgotten to wake up. Batters, we take her to a nursery in Clapham South - the little girl who lives near you went there for a while, though it didn't really suit her. Mine thrives on the atmosphere there, but the sleep thing is a real issue. I suspect its the teachers' lunch break that drives it rather than the children's needs!

Can I hijack this thread? I am wondering what to do about my 3.5 year old. He's really a bit too old for daytime naps and he did start to drop them when he was about 3. However some days he'd really seem to need a nap or fall asleep in the car. There was a period when I wasn't putting him down and he'd often fall asleep quite literally over his tea about 5pm. Over Christmas he was ill a lot so just slept where and when.

Since then I've tried to get him out of the daytime nap but its proving difficult. If he doesn't nap he'll sleep 8.30/9pm till about 7.30/8am next day. However with a nap he'll maybe not go to bed till 10pm. Obviously I prefer the earlier bedtime. The thing is he tires himself out so quickly. Within minutes of getting up he is leaping up and down on the sofa. I am wondering if he is actually hyperactive (how does one define this?). Today he quite literally didn't stop but became so unbearable I had to put him to bed at 6.30pm. Heaven knows what's happening this evening. Do I count this as an afternoon nap and wake him soon or let him sleep? Any suggestions for calming him down a bit during the day? I put the TV on this afternoon in the bedroom thinking he may lie down or even sleep but all he did was jump up and down on the bed!

dd (9 months) also seems to have the same active gene - argghhh!!!!!

Eulalia, it certainly sounds like your ds needs something to tire him out - we have a trampoline (one of the little ones from ELC, with a handle) which is great for expending energy - do you think that that might help?

Eulalia, you have my sympathy! My elder dd (4 in Feb) sounds very similar to your ds. She never stops bouncing all day and still refuses to go to sleep, even when quite obviously tired. If she has a daytime nap, which I try to avoid if possible, she won't go to sleep until 11pm. We've had the ridiculous situation where we've gone to bed and are going to sleep and dd is still awake and chatting to herself.

I don't have any real solution other than the need to have a regular routine and try to get lots of activity in the fresh air each day! As for this evening, I'd leave him to sleep and hope for the best. Dd has done this before and slept through till morning.

The 'door shut threat' appears to be working for us too. (hope I'm not jinxing here) If I hear the pitter patter I go to the stairs and shout 'back into bed please or Mummy will close the door'. This seems to be enough for him to pitter patter back. We did have a few nights of me holding the door, him crying and fighting, and yes I did feel wicked - that said, I now only have to threaten to close the door. He is 2.5 and I had the same problem with my daughter at this age and used the door method. If you are consistent with your approach it usually only takes a few days to a week. Good luck

Thanks. He slept till 6am right through! That is the first time in his life he's gone to bed at 6.30. Even as a baby he'd go down at 8.30pm.

Within a few mins he was back to running around again. Seems it is either one extreme or the other - manic or comotose!

So, we put a stairgate on dd1's door, as I mentioned below, not to keep her in, but to keep dd2 out. Of course dd2 managed to pile up some cuddly toys and was straight over it! I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to stop dd2 going into dd1's room in the middle of the night. When they've just gone to bed, although it's a pain, I can sit there and make sure she leaves her sister alone, but in the middle of the night, I really do not want to be standing / sitting / lying on guard outside the bedrooms. Part of the trouble is that the bedrooms are at the other end of the house to ours, so it's hard to hear every little (creeping) noise. Also, most of the time dd1 doesn't mind dd2 gettting into bed with her, so we don't always know about it until the next morning. But when dd2 gets in the bed, starts chatting and turning the light on and off, dd1 understandably gets a little annoyed.
I don't want to put any sort of locks on the doors, but short of that, I can't think of a way to keep dd2 in her room. She's not scared when she wakes up in the night, just bored, I think. We have tried stickers, but she's not really bothered about them.
Any ideas?

Last night was another disturbed night - dd2 came to our room, and rather than send her back to her room and risk her climbing into dd1's room, I let her sleep in the spare room - a treat normally. She went there happily enough, but some time later she was back in my room. She says that she is cold in her own bed - she has a hot water bottle to go to bed with, but by 4:00 am, it's gone cold. I really do not want to be making up hot water bottles at that time of the morning, and anyway, once she's asleep she is the sweatiest person I know! Please, anyone got any ideas?
Oh, and although she has always been like this, we are on our 4th night without nappies - so I realise this could add to her being unsettled.

OK, so I know I didn't get much response to this last time, but I thought I'd try again, as this middle of the night waking is still going on, and frankly, it's driving me mad. She says that her bed is cold (it's not), she can't sleep in that bed (tried her in the spare room - makes no difference), she needs a hug from her sister (tried letting them sleep in the same room - dd1 just got annoyed with dd2 messing around), she needs someone to watch her. I've tried everything I can think of - but I'm scared it's becoming such an ingrained habit that she's going to carry on like this forever. Going to bed earlier or later makes no difference. The most annoying thing is that once I'm awake in the middle of the night, I find it hard to go back to sleep, so almost every night, I have a 2 hour awake time, too. Even if dh is "in charge" (which he is willing to do), I still wake up - that mother's instinct has a lot to answer for. We're going to my brother's for a few days, and this kind of thing is always so much harder to deal with in someone else's house - I suppose I'll have to share a room with her just to avoid waking everyone else. . Isn't it amazing how you learn to cope on so little sleep?

Emsiewill - It has been very cold the past few nights - I put a heater in dds room and set on a timer throughout the night. Of course she may just want company - when my dd started this we just kept marching her back to bed and told her if she didn't sleep she would be too tired to do x tomorrow - eg. park, chocolate whatever works. She did eventually give up. Good luck - it is not much fun at the moment but this will pass

emsiewill, for the last couple of weeks we had been having horrific disturbed nights when we tried dd1 (3) without nappies (her choice, not mine). In the end I put her back in pull-ups (I know, I know, you aren't supposed to) - and voila! the last two nights have been blissful. she has chilled out completely and slept all the way through the night.

If you are happy leaving her without nappies, and she isn't scared, then I am afraid I would be horribly strict about it. DONT do anything she wants you to do in the middle of the night, just put her back in the bed and shut the door. Be very firm. Could you try that?

Thanks for swift replies! I suppose there's 2 parts to this, one is the no nappies thing - it's not beena problem as such - that doesn't seem to be why she's waking up (she's been doing it on and off all her life), and I really am reluctant to put her back into the pull ups, quite apart from whether she'll let me! The other part is that if we just ignore her, she goes into her sister's room and that's just not fair. I'm very happy to ignore this kind of thing usually, but not prepared to penalise dd1. Oh well, keep the ideas coming!

As she is so keen not to wear nappies at night could you not just say 'if you get up you'll have to go back in the nappies again'?

My only suggestion would be controlled crying!! I am sorry that it will probably affect the whole household for a few days, but it sounds like she is makin a habit which must be broken. Do you have Toddler Taming as he talks about this middle of the night thing?

I would say don't pander to her and just put her back to bed time and time again, if you can get a rota going with your dh.

Sorry I can't help more

Emsiewill,
when I swapped ds from a cot to a bed, we put a cabin hook on the outside of his door. the door is open about an inch, but won't open any further. So we can hear him if he cries, but he can't get out. We have only used it on nights when he has got up, we put him back to bed and hook the door shut. then he cries for a few minutes, but eventually gives up and gets back into bed and sleeps. (controlled crying)

I suggest you try this. It seems like your dd2 enjoys the social interaction she gets from coming in to you or her sister. If she can't get out in the first place, you cut that out. I think you really have to be strict, otherwise it really is just an entertaining game for her.

on the first night, I would fasten the cabin hook, and tell her that she can't get out of her room in the middle of the night. When she wakes and tries to get out in the night, tell her that she cannot leave her room, it's nighttime and she must go to sleep (don't go in to her) then go back to bed yourself and let her cry it out. obviously if she starts to get really upset you will go to her, but be as strict as you can. Once she realises she can't win, she should settle thru.

While ever you get up to put her back to bed, she is getting the attention she wants.

Don't forget that the first time she let's you sleep thru till morning she needs tons of cuddles and maybe even a special treat.

Obviously you may need to go back to nappies or put a potty in her room (risky re spillage) until the issue is fixed, but worth it I think.

You really need to get this fixed before she starts a full school routine, otherwise it will affect her school days.
HTH

love

Thanks all for your thoughts & ideas. I have got Toddler Taming, but must admit I haven't read it since dd1 was a toddler, so maybe I should look it out, and see what he has to say. I have never had a problem with doing controlled crying - but actually she doesn't really cry, just comes out and into dd1's room (over the stairgate! ). I think we're going to go for the cabin hook idea. I have toyed with it before, but didn't like the idea that she couldn't go to the toilet if she needed to. However, now I'm more concerned with getting a good night's sleep, so will either put a potty in there, or just take a chance.
Woke up this morning without having been disturbed, and told dd2 I was really pleased with her etc.... She said "but I went in dd1's bed". I was out last night, so obviously slept soundly enough not to hear it. Dd1 was not pleased though - dd2 had been turning the light on and off and pushing and shoving her.
The mad thing is that it doesn't seem to affect dd2 in the day at all - she's as full of beans as ever, and just isn't the type of child that gets wingey when tired (or maybe she never gets tired! ).
Thanks again for all responses - am going away today, but will put ideas into action on our return.