Creating new sleep associations

[Pinkjenny]

I have posted this so many times, but am now trying to look upon sleep as something that I need to ensure dd has to keep her happy and healthy, rather than some kind of torture I am inflicting on her.

She has always been a dodgy sleeper, and co-sleeps every night. We used to be able to get her to sleep in the evening, and then she would come in with us later on. But a combination of summer evenings, BBQs and frivolity (!) has resulted in a situation where she comes to bed with me at about 8.15pm. I lie on our bed with her, whilst she throws herself about for half an hour, and then finally drops off. I would be OK with this (although it is far from ideal), but she has tp be up for nursery and to go to my mum's 4 days a week, and is shattered and grumpy.

I tried to get her to sleep in her cot last night, but she got so upset I gave in. Like I always do. I cannot leave her to cry, even at intervals, there is no point pretending I can.

Is there anything else I can do? Dh and I can't have our tea in peace as she grabs food off our plates! She's not hungry or in pain, she just wants to be with us.

Can anyone help?

Well dd is still up, cut first tooth last night, has slept all day (4 naps! always sleeps more when under the weather) Clearly feeling better now!!

WS, how old is DD? 4 naps seems like quite a lot but understandable when poorly - wish I could still sleep like that!

Hope she's now fast asleep and tomorrow, hopefully with the tooth through she'll be able to play during the day and sleep at night - theories good isn't it!

DS sleep patterns are always trashed when he's teething, we just try to work around them and be consistent so that he falls back into it when he's ready to. I'm fed up with people saying "all you get with teething is teeth", huh! DS gets a very snotty nose, a cough, a sore bum and disrupted sleep - mostly as a result of the former!

I didn't do it last night. Twas a disaster, she was so unsettled from the point of being collected from nursery. The nightmare continues.

In what way unsettled? What didn't you do and what did you do?

She was in a really dreadful mood, crying, and having little 13mo tantrums. Its probably lack of sleep TBH and I think she is cutting two more teeth.

I didn't try any of your fab ideas while she was already in such a bad mood. Thought the evening may descend into chaos. Although it did anyway, and even when she went to sleep she wasn't particularly restful.

PJ, maybe some of the suggestions would have provided a distraction.

Start with one thing and then introduce others, don't try and do it all in one go if it feels overwhelming - for either of you.

For example, maybe tonight, introduce a bath for her. The change of environment may be just the distraction she needs. Or, if she's not that keen on baths, just sit on your bed with some of her soft toys and a couple of her books and play some games with her...she'll be fascinated at what you're up to because its new.

Once you've done this for a few days, then introduce the bath prior to the play - as I said before, the bath is a really good place to get out last bits of energy - and frustrations - from the day. And if she's teething, then a wet flannel in the bath to have a good chew on should help ease that too! If you haven't got squirty toys, get some, and cups, babies love cups - they're also good for chewing on when teething!

Just change one thing, just one thing tonight and have fun - just because she starts off in a bad mood doesn't mean you can't change it.

Cals - you are a star. She has a bath every night, its what happens after that that means the 'routine' goes out the window, i.e. she comes downstairs. This used to be fine, she used to just have her bottle, cuddle in, and go to sleep. Now she can see all her toys and then daddy comes home, and its all too much fun. Ha ha, we stopped letting her have the flannel because she sucks the bath water off it, revolting.

You're right, a gradual approach. So maybe tonight she doesn't come back downstairs? God, I sound like an idiot, don't I? I am a relatively intelligent 31 year old woman, I promise you, I am just useless when it comes to setting boundaries for this baby!

Its been really difficult to make suggestions coz you haven't really said what it is that you do....

One of the first boundaries that I set and think is perhaps where you are struggling is with the upstairs rule. You are absolutely right that once you are upstairs, you should stay there. By going back downstairs after the bath she's confused about what it is that you are doing.

With DS, once we're upstairs, he never comes down (maybe a couple of exceptions when he's accidentally had a late nap in the car but very exceptional!). I do let him watch telly, but only Cbeebies, and that finishes at 7 so is a really good indicator to him that its time to go upstairs, have bath, story, bottle and bed.

What time are you giving her the bath, how long do you spend in it? What time are you aiming for her to go to bed and when does her dad get home? It would be nice to have a routine that incorpates her dad too wouldn't it?

I actually don't see a problem with sucking the flannel if she's going in a big bath, based on the fact that anything in there is going to be so massively diluted its not going to do her any harm at all - I can't stop DS drinking the bathwater and he's perfectly fine!

If it was a small bath still then I can see your point but at 13 months I imagine she will be splashing and crawling about in a decent amount of water in the bath?

And to pull you up on something, the routine doesn't go out of the window - what you do is the routine...its the only thing she knows and she is confused about whether its play time or bed time. You aim is to fill every one of her senses with 'bedtime' e.g. dark, quiet calm voices, warm, full tummy (bedtime milk drink), cuddles, teddy bear, story time etc etc.

Where in your bedtime routine do you come back downstairs, put on the playstation (or whatever) before heading back up stairs and having someone expecting you to fall straight to sleep?!!

Oh my, but wouldn't it be nice if someone did run as a bath, give us a warm milky drink, read a story, quick cuddle (with no funny business expected), then tucked us into bed - I'd go to sleep straight away!!! LOL!

Sorry, I've really rambled...will post anyway...

Oh, and if sucking flannels bothers you - how are you going to introduce tooth brushing? If she's just cut her first tooth, you need to get her a toothbrush and some baby toothpaste (get the mint flavoured mcleans one - the stupid fruit flavoured ones just lead to problems when they are older, she might think its odd at first but she will get used to it). Then you need to try to clean her teeth and get her to have a go too - we put smear of paste on the brush, just enough to taste, then try to clean his teeth. We've had to go through all sorts of games - letting him use his brush to clean our teeth - getting our toothbrushes out and cleaning our teeth at the same time and so on..

The point is though, the easiest place for all this is in the bath at the moment, coz he just waves the brush around everywhere - but it goes in the bath, in his mouth, in the bath etc.

We just wash it every night in piping hot water to keep it clean.

Calsworld - told you I was annoying.

OK, this is what we do. Please don't judge, this has only been going on for the past few weeks, but she is getting very tired and irritable now, its just not working. These are all approximate timings.

6.30pm My mum arrives ( I know, I know - she just comes to see us both)

6.45pm Bathtime - It sounds ridiculous, but the reason I don't like her sucking the flannel is because its almost impossible for me to get her bedtime milk down her, and even harder when she has a belly full of bath water. She doesn't really like her bath TBH, she usually wants to get out after about 5 mins.

7.00pm DH comes home

Approx 7.00pm Dd gets out the bath, dried etc, then I have a quick shower (we've stopped having showers while she's in bed because it wakes her up ). She plays on our bed with my mum while dh makes dinner.

7.15pm Back downstairs, milk feed. Which she used to drink happily, but now sees all her toys and just wants to get off my knee and play with them straight away, so now typically having about 3oz.

7.30pm We have dinner, most of which she nicks off our plates.

8.00pm My mum goes home, and I take her upstairs and get into our bed with her. She throws herself around the bed for between 30 and 45 minutes, before just 'crashing' because she's so tired. The last two nights she has gone to sleep after 9pm.

God, it sounds awful doesn't it. I do know its awful, but can't go the whole hog at once. So I think the first step is not to bring her back downstairs. And she does brush her teeth in the bath.

You're not annoying and I'm not judgemental - at least I try not to be!! I'm a full time WOHM which on top of being a first time mum is, IMO, pretty scary. You do what you do, when you can, the best you can, and that's all there is to it. The worst thing is when someone marches in and says, you need to put in more effort or 'just' do this or 'just' do that, without really having a full understanding of whats going on.

I think its really lovely that your mum comes round - mine is 3.5 hours away so am quite jealous! And she helps you out!!

Are you having meals on laps or at the table - it might be nice for her to have her own food in a highchair at a table if thats possible? It would be a bit calmer than going lap to lap nicking food? Also, could it be that she is refusing milk at the promise of more interesting food from your plates?

It would be better if the mealtime wasn't where it is, so that instead of having dinner at 7.30, you are putting her to bed. Then eventually, when she's in a new routine, you can eat dinner at 8 instead. Would that be possible? You're mum can then do some of the winding down I suggested whilst you shower, then your mum goes downstairs leaving you and DD to work out new sleep routine - which in the beginning will probably take a lot longer than half an hour, but if your mum supports you and DH keeps your dinner warm it will pay off.

She eats dinner at 5pm, in a highchair. She views our dinner as supper I think . We have our meals on our laps, and she has her bottle before we have our dinner, never at the same time. She won't drink her morning milk either, I just think she's not a lover of a) milk, and b) sitting still.

I am definitely up for moving mealtime and getting her to bed. That's what we used to do, but it used to go in the microwave about fifteen times as she kept waking up. I think, TBH, we started keeping her up because it was just easier to get it all out the way, i.e. dinner, dishes etc, and then concentrate on bedtime, as it was all becoming very stressful.

I don't really want to remove my mum from the routine as she is so helpful, and has been since dd was born, and dh works late a lot. But maybe all the cavorting in the bedroom while I shower (for all of about 3 minutes!) is starting the 'playtime' mentality.

Cals - have emailed you xx

DD is 7 mo, pj your eveningssound very similar to ours!! Goodluck tonight.

I think you could put her in the cot during the day to play when she is awake and happy. Put her toys in there and maybe put some music on and dance around the room.

And when you need to clean her room put her in the cot with toys so she feels happy and comfortable in there.

I have ds in my bedroom, he goes to bed way too late and I put him in the cot once I have bf/ rocked to sleep. Then he wakes up around 12/1 and I usually take him in with me. Last night he didnot wake untill morning so things are improving.