Creating new sleep associations

[Pinkjenny]

I have posted this so many times, but am now trying to look upon sleep as something that I need to ensure dd has to keep her happy and healthy, rather than some kind of torture I am inflicting on her.

She has always been a dodgy sleeper, and co-sleeps every night. We used to be able to get her to sleep in the evening, and then she would come in with us later on. But a combination of summer evenings, BBQs and frivolity (!) has resulted in a situation where she comes to bed with me at about 8.15pm. I lie on our bed with her, whilst she throws herself about for half an hour, and then finally drops off. I would be OK with this (although it is far from ideal), but she has tp be up for nursery and to go to my mum's 4 days a week, and is shattered and grumpy.

I tried to get her to sleep in her cot last night, but she got so upset I gave in. Like I always do. I cannot leave her to cry, even at intervals, there is no point pretending I can.

Is there anything else I can do? Dh and I can't have our tea in peace as she grabs food off our plates! She's not hungry or in pain, she just wants to be with us.

Can anyone help?

Have you got a regular time in place that she goes to bed at? I'm wondering if reading what other people do that does work might help if it gives you some ideas that you can incorporate?

I borrowed bits from the baby whisperer - no crying, avoid eye contact, don't talk, be persistent and consistant and have found it very useful.

DS (now 18 months) needs to be in asleep 8 at the very very latest. So, at about 7 his dad takes him up for a bath. They have a really good play in the bath with lots of splashing and giggling and being silly. It gets the last bits of energy out. I guess this could be substituted with physical play if a bath every day doesn't suit.

Whilst he's in the bath, I shut all the curtains and blinds upstairs and do everything I can to shut out as much light as possible.

DH takes him out of the bath, dries, PJs on, then into our bedroom. WHen he was younger we used Johnsons nighttime cream too, which smells delicous and adds to the picture that we're presenting to DS that its time for bed soon.

Then DH sits on our bed with DS in front and between legs and they read books together. Now, as we've done this since he was four months old, he loves books and the stories and sits and listens to about 3, depending on length, but any calm games or singing or story that you can replicate night after night would do. It gives him time to relax and cuddle after his warm bath and gets him in the right mind-set for going to sleep.

Then, he has a (spouted) cup of warm milk (yes, its after he's cleaned his teeth and we're trying to move it to before, slowly slowly catch a monkey is my favourite phrase!!) and DH takes him into his bedroom.

DH used to stand and rock him till he was nearly asleep, then put him down and pat his bottom. But now, quite often he's so ready that he asks to be put in his cot, rolls over and goes to sleep! On the other hand, other nights he gets put in and promptly stands up again.

We have a chair next to his cot that DH sits in, avoids eye contact but provides physical comfort - pats, etc. If he doesnt' lie down again after a couple of moments, DH lies him down but says nothing and still avoiding eye contact...this can go on for up to 20 mins but we always win.

Maybe there's something here that you could try?

That all sounds great. When dh is in his room, avoiding contact etc, does ds cry? And what do you do if he does?

Great advice about avoiding eye contact and not saying very much. I really do think this makes a difference.

If your lo cries, make calming and soothing noises (sushing etc). It's very effective imo.

Well, we're a bit further down the line than you are with all this - DS is now 18 months and we've been doing this forever. He's always asleep by 8 and he doesnt' cry, so we're happy.

When we first started putting him in his cot he would cry, so I pick up comfort until not crying, then put down. Pick up, comfort, put down, and so on. I took a bottle of wine to the bedroom with me and invested my whole evening in it. x 3.

After the third night it was exactly as others have said and the gaps get longer, so he'd lie there for thirty seconds - then cry...but by this point, he's learning what's going on and knows he's getting a cuddle out of it, so its not really a cry - the fear has gone out of the situation and now its a moan, cos he's not being cuddled...and its a very different noise that you will recognise.

If you still can't bear to hear the moans, then just carry on pick up, put down, and when you put down, pat, or place a hand on her so she feels your presence still.

Eventually, even you will get fed up with the pick up put downs coz the complaining will get less determined as she learns what is happening.

Just don't walk out on her until she's gone to sleep or the trust will be broken.

Because she's a year I think this could take soem time, but its no different to what you're doing now in may ways, just perhaps a little more structured...

Does any of that make any sense or even answer the question?

(Gosh - I wasn't drunk in charge- I promise )!

That makes a lot of sense. And the wine too!

Its also very hard in the heat. God I am full of excuses aren't I? Its as you say, well put, you need to invest the time.

Mine was getting very tired and I was trying to keep her up till bedtime, but now I let her have a late afternoon nap, figure she doesn't go down at bedtime anyway.. this has helped her daytime tiredness a bit..

Does sound like a great routine calsworld, I may buck up the courage to try a bit of that..

I don't know anything really, I just know that I read the baby whisperer initially because I wanted to have some 'tools' in my back pocket if what I was doing through instinct wasn't working.

I hadn't heard of controlled crying until I joined mumsnet and didn't really like the sound of it but figured that if all else had failed perhaps we should give that a go. I think the longest we've managed is about a minute but its completely not our style . I don't doubt its efficacy just not for us before I get beaten about it!

Because it is hard work and hot weather and lets face it, its blinkin' frustrating when you know its for their own good! I think its really mindful to not set too many obectives...perhaps just have in mind a couple

1. I want her to sleep in her own cot
2. I don't want her to cry to sleep

and think about a plan, maybe even write it down, so that when she's awake and bashing you /the bed / the cot with toys - you don't just think, bugger it! i'll get in bed with you as that works....you have a plan to refer to and go back a step to help keep you on track. So many times DH and I had to check ourselves coz we were going to give in and let him sleep on us in the lounge instead of upstairs in bed.

Good luck! With the hot weather, maybe a bath at not too hot temperature would be good for cooling down before commencing battle !

Calsworld - that is so true. And she's so lovely and so much fun, I love having her with me all the time. But I am starting to see that I am actually (IMO, in my family, not judging anyone else) being selfish, because she is not getting the sleep she needs.

You are so in love with your DD! I know how you feel coz I'm the same - cheeky monkey that he is!

But as I said, putting her to bed earlier is still spending time with her and watching them sleep is really lovely too!

My DS likes watching 'In the night garden', he used to be completely obsessed with it but now he'll only watch a whole episode if he's tired, at Easter we bought him a soft 'Iggle Piggle' character and now its become something of a comforter...which wasn't really the intention - its just that he loved the show so much.

I don't have a problem with comforters at all btw, we bought one thats been in his cot since birth but there's no bond with it - I think that has to be created.

I mention it because if DD hasn't got one perhaps you could introduce her if you're not against it? It could form part of the night time / bed time associations and give her comfort when she's in her cot. I know there are downsides like what to do when he gets lost etc (we are getting a new one tonight as Mr Pig (as DH and I call him) is desperate for a wash!

BTW - By creating a bond I mean its no use just putting it in her cot - you have to engage her with it, play with it, cuddle it - show her what to do with it, especially the cuddling.

Maybe she has a teddy or doll that could do some of the bedtime routine with you, like if you're reading books, you can sit it so that it can 'see' them too, pick it up and cuddle it, put it on your shoulder like its your baby etc - they then get the gist and she will copy. Then when you put DD in bed, you can make a fuss of putting toy in with her, giving them both a kiss, cuddle etc.

Just more random thoughts!

Another really good idea calsworld. You should write a book! She doesn't have an attachment to any toys TBH, so this would be a good opportunity to create a sleep association I guess.

Or music, maybe?

Yeah, my sister really successfully introduced story and music cd's that the kids would go to sleep to, not sure what age that was at though.

The only reason I haven't tried it (and this is REALLY stupid) is that i haven't got a cd player. Every time I mention picking up a cheap one for it, DH says no, no may as well buy a decent one so no cd player so far... (I think its just an excuse for him to go all techy on me again!)

I've started playing 'winnie the pooh' story cd in the car so that he gets used to the sound and rhythm of it, and am planning on introducing them soon.

I read an article by a lady whose child didn't sleep through til the age of 8!!! And she changed it using sleep association, with music and routine, she said even when the music comes on her son starts rubbing his eyes. Am guessing an 8yo brings it's own challenges as well.

Its just the crying. I could sit there all night, but she tries two tactics, she either screams the place down, or she decides to change her approach and start dancing in her cot. She did all of these things last night.

The benefit of cd's and soft toys is their portability - we travel a lot to my parents / his parents / our friends etc so having a constant in all of that is really important. We replicate the routine as best we can, but the environment is different and that can be unsettling.

This weekend is the first weekend away in a while though and I'm wondering if Mr Pig is going to do his stuff for us!!

Yeah, we're going on holiday in 4 weeks, so I could start and then this all could be ruined. (Am sensing another excuse coming on...)

Pinkjenny - my approach would probably be;

if she's crying: pick her up and cuddle her, no eye contact, be as boring as you can! You're aiming to calm her down and make her think that there's no point being up so she may as well go to sleep! then, when she settles, let her relax a bit, then put her in the cot. if she cries, don't say anything, don't look at her, just pick her up and soothe her again - ssshhhhing is fine, or humming the same tune but avoid words (incl. lyrics), rocking works too. if you stand up to cradle her, try to make sure her view is as boring as possible e.g. not of the doorway or of her toyshelves, a nice boring patch of painted wall should do fine !

if she's dancing: definitely try not to laugh or smile , still no eye contact and as boring as you can....I'm thinking music might not be the best option if it encourages her to dance? but still worth a try!

I would sit on a chair (this could take some time so you probably want to be comfy!) or a beanbag (bit noisy to creep away from so try putting a sheet on top!) and turn your head slightly away from her, and just sit quietly, possibly with your eyes shut. I'd let her dance for a moment or so, then if not upset, pick her up to lie her down, then return to 'boring mummy stance' and so on.

and flucatuate between the two until she goes to sleep.

Bear in mind of course that this could take a long time the first time so you might want to do it on a night that isn't a work night?

LOL PJ - you want this as much as she does and in four weeks you should be well on the way to a new routine! Also, going on holiday doesn't erase her memory, as soon as you get home again, just resume where you left off. You'll probably go back a couple of stages but you will gain ground quicker than the first time round.

Calsworld - definitely will try this without the lyrics, and my laughing at the dancing. Another great idea about her shelves, she was pointing to her books last night.

Are you a sleep expert in disguise? Liverpool's not that far from Derby. Come and muck in!

lol - at sleep expert - definately not!

I normally work full time but am off with tonsillitis (again - bit of a reoccuring problem this year) so am around for the next couple of days, normally I only get on in the evenings, it would be lovely to hear how you get on?

Thanks for this thread - lots of good acvice and encouragement. In RL it feels as if I'm the only person in the world to feel that I can't do controlled crying - and then I feel guilty for not 'helping' my dd. Even thought I know this isn't true - I'm working on her sleep every day, but in gentler ways. When did cc become a kind of rite of passage here? This thread has encouraged me to keep going and not feel so despondant or weak!

Mini - DS is in bed next to me having his bed time stories read by DH. He loves his books!

Don't feel week not leaving your LO to cry, I think that not having someone to cuddle when you want love, reassurance or just a ruddy cuddle is sad - so my DS always gets a cuddle.

I think at some point in the future there is a change and that the change comes when s/he isn't genuinely upset and in need of a cuddle, but is simply trying to delay going to bed. DS is getting to this stage now and is starting to take the mick...but because we've always responded to him he isn't really upset so its easier to leave him for a minute or two, then he lies down and goes to sleep.

Its not controlled crying its ignoring the whingeing. He's having a last ditch attempt to avoid going to bed. Additionally, when someone other than DH or I tries to put him to bed, he lies down and goes to sleep, no messing about! Frustrating in some respects but a relief in others, IYSWIM?

Good luck everyone and here's to a peaceful bedtime! (Bottles Glasses of wine at the ready!?)

weak even