Bed time advice for desperate parents!

[Danwm]

Advice very gratefully received,

Our lovely two year old has had a rollercoaster of a ride with sleep, but has been very stably sleeping for the last 10 months or so with minimal night wake ups, going up to bed at 6:45, asleep sometime between 7 and 7:30, and awake around 6 for when we get up for work.

We had baby number 2 in May which coincided with our 2YO suddenly sleeping longer - most days we would go in and wake him around 7:30!

Over the summer we had a week away and since then sleep has completely changed - I'm writing this off the back of several weeks of 5am wake ups, 4:15 today. He's sleeping between 45 mins and an hour in the daytime. We presumed over tiredness was the issue given he's sleeping just under 10 hours at night, so around 11 hours in total per 24 hours, and have tried starting bedtime at 6:30, asleep by 7.

Advice please - should we stick with an earlier bedtime to try and help him catch up on sleep and hope this is a phase that will change again as things always do, or would you try something more radical and go later? My concern is a later bedtime might mean even less sleep, but I know that might be a short term sacrifice for longer term change!

Thanks!

We had this about the same age. We used a gro clock and set it at 15 min extra each week to stretch her back to 6am. She cry, get annoyed with us but it worked. No getting up until the sun comes up!

To be fair, you have a child who sleeps from about 7.30 and is up at 5ish and I hear no complaints about persistent night waking. Mine are grown up now @Danwm and I'd have chewed off my right arm for that.

This was a really unhelpful reply.

Is he waking at 5am tired? Or ready to go?

DS1 dropped all napping very shortly after turning 2.

If he's not tired, 11 hours is right for him, and I'd say you either stop the nap, and/or push bedtime back to get to the later start you want.

But I would also agree if you are getting 10 straight hours out of him, you are doing very well, and much as you want a later start, it might be worth taking the wins where you can get them.

The theory of “sleep breeds sleep” really helped with mine. Really good sleep during the day, is the key to get really good sleep at night. I worked the days using “wake windows”. The wake window for a 2 year old is 6 hours. So very roughly, their first nap should be 6 hours after waking.
example: awake at 6am, nap at midday for say 90 mins, awake at 130pm, bed at 730pm.

This is likely because yours had that level of sleep need. There is no evidence for wake windows for all babies though - only total sleep needs in 24hrs which for this age can range from 11-14hrs including any naps. That range is large and mine was never at the top end of it. Early bed for mine meant early rises - sleep did not breed sleep sadly. If sleep has been good for a long time then dips it is much more likely that sleep needs have dropped or changed, ie that they need more time awake or less naps. 10hrs is a very normal night with a nap as they head towards dropping it. I'd do later bed and then when that stops working, drop the nap

I guess it didn’t offer specific advice re what to do but it did offer a realistic comparison. I had similar experience and say what you are getting now is not bad. I found knowing I wasn’t alone quite helpful to be honest and I also found I coped better when was a bit more relaxed about what I could and couldn’t change. I’m not saying you can’t change this but it may be a pattern your child is into for a bit that resists external intervention. Now in terms of what to try, I’d go for a later bedtime (I get the sleep begets sleep point but I reckon your child may be waking as they have simply had enough sleep by 5), plus a grow clock. Having this going into winter where mornings are darker will help too.

I agree it sounds like your child is getting enough sleep in 24 hours. You could try dropping the nap but that may result in an earlier bed time rather than waking up later.

I think it’s a fair response. She’s trying to tell you that although it’s got worse that it seems awful to you because you’re used to good sleep now. It’s pretty normal for kids to have some early wakings and night waking at that age.

i was used to 12hrs from our older child, it all went to shit at 2.5 yrs when she learnt to climb from her cot/baby was born/ she was potty trained. We’ve had hard bed times, night wakings, early mornings… just not all at the same time.

id suggest cutting the daytime nap, perfecting your bedtime routine, making sure it’s very dark, make sure you’re using the gro clock, try to do a quick back to bed routine when they get up early. The other option is to bring them to your bed, which a lot of desperate parents do!

I've seen the gro clock suggestion mentioned by several PP on here over the last couple of years so that probably is a good solution that works for the majority!

It can depend on your child, as you've said it coincides with a holiday it's possible his sleep is just adjusted wrong and an earlier bedtime will be at least giving him the sleep he needs but may not change the time he wakes up.

If he's sleeping in the day time, try and keep it to a similar time of day and similar length although this won't always be possible.
Point out it's dark and quiet too, and are you sure there's nothing waking him?
Someone drives past our house at a similar time of morning with a rather noisy car which wakes me up, the second one of my older dc is disturbed by anything from about 5am they'll instantly be awake, it could be he's hitting a lighter window of sleep and something is disturbing him.

Is he still in a cot or in a bed? What did he sleep in on holiday? Was a different type?

Agree with the gro clock response. Alongside this, being really strict about it. It the sun is not out, they are in bed. No talking or cuddling about it, a straight pick up and into bed. Tell them your expectations before bedtime, and be over the top excited in the morning when the sun is up on the clock so they are clear there is a difference.
Also, do they have access to a drink if they need it.