3YO has never slept through the night

[matilda1077]

And it's just getting worse.

As title says, she hasn't slept through the night, not once. I sort of became accustomed to the sleepless nights, but as she gets older it is only getting worse and it is starting to affect all of us now.

We put her down at 6:30. One of us has to lay with her until she falls asleep, otherwise she will keep getting out of bed or creeping over to her sisters bed (they share a room) and wakes her up. She has been taking over an hour to fall asleep lately. Once asleep, she will stay down for 1 hour at most before she's crying out for us, if we don't go up, she will get up herself and we have to take her back to bed. Last night between 7:30 - 10pm, she stirred 7 times. She calls out for water which is already next to her in bed. She makes us lay with her until she dozes back off, but the second she realises we've left, she's awake again. She starts disturbing other DD who is only 4 and is in reception so she needs her rest. In the end we just get so exhausted she ends up in bed with me, but even co sleeping she constantly taps me awake, hits me in the face with her water bottle to ask for a refill, tries to change beds (and will go in and turn the light on in her sisters room, waking her up). so I have to chase after her down the hallway at 4am, to stop her from waking everyone else.

By 5:30am she can't be fobbed off with distractions anymore so I have to get up with her. But by 7am when it's time to get ready for preschool, school and work, she is an emotional wreck - because she's tired! The amount of sleep she is getting isn't healthy for her, nor us! But I'm at a loss of what to do. We've tried everything - earlier bedtimes, later bedtimes, warm milk before bed, sticker charts, bribery, you name it, we've done it. There is only so much crying out you can let her do before she's tearing around the house and waking up her sister. It's hard on all of us.

I'm shattered at work, and my patience is wearing very thin. 3 and 1/2 years of no sleep is certainly taking its toll!

Does anyone have any advice that worked for them? We are desperate

What I would do is not Mumsnet approved but it worked on mine when they went through phases like this.

I would go in, say it's night time, people need to sleep, then leave. When she cries again, wait a little bit longer - like 30s longer - go in do it again. If she gets out of bed, carry her back to bed. Then wait a minute. Then two mins etc. The first few nights will be fucking miserable. But she will get it eventually. Mumsnet will say this is cruel but she is miserable with lack of sleep.

The other thing I would do is get her a Tonie box or yoto player so she can listen to something if she wakes in the night.

If possible, I would have your other DD stay elsewhere for a few nights while you sleep train.

We sleep trained and our little one went from waking every 25 -45 minutes to sleeping through the night within a few days.

Kind of feel like he's getting a full night of sleep was the less cruel option!

6.30 might be a very early bedtime for her. I accept that she's getting up early and she's tired, but have you ever tried treating her as a night owl for a while? Her natural bedtime might be 8pm or even later. (It would probably take several nights of a later bedtime to affect the early mornings though, so don't only try this for one night.)

I speak as a somewhat resigned morning person with high sleep needs whose husband and children are night owls with lowish sleep needs. My five year old goes to bed around 8.30 and has since age 4 - if I tried to get her to bed at 6.30 it would be a struggle!

If you've already tried this, apologies.

Keep in mind, for example, that normally sleep latency (the time it takes to get to sleep) is about 15-20 mins. If it always takes a lot longer than that then her bedtime is probably too early, in the same way that an adult would struggle to go to bed very early.

Similarly, she may be tired, but that is not necessarily directly connected to when she is sleepy . Just like jetlag, you know? You can feel really tired but unable to drop off, because it's not your personal sleepy time.

Anyway, the long bedtimes were just what really stood out. Usually the first half of the night is easier to get a chunk of sleep.

Best of luck to you.

What are her consequences? If my kids hit me in the face with a bottle to get it refilled they'd get their bottle removed until morning, as harsh as that might sound.

My 2.5 year old woke frequently and since we've stopped her getting into our bed and really has improved. If she calls for me in the night I'll go and comfort her but she knows not to try getting in with us now. Took about 4 nights of redirecting her back to her own bed and really being persistent but so worth it. Could you persevere with ending the bed sharing? I know it's hard and it must be even harder as your kids share a room, mind have their own rooms.

Remember she's 3 and not a baby or toddler anymore. You are the boss. X

6:30 is an insanely early bedtime. My kids of the same age, go to bed at 8.
Also, you are letting her rule the roost and rule your life and it's not good for her. Take back control.

I don't think 6:30 is ridiculously early - my older one likes a 6/6:30 bedtime at this age. It's on the early end, yes.

Does anyone have any advice that worked for them? We are desperate

Nope. DS grew out of it at about 7/8 years old.

Sorry.

I have x2 3 year old twins. 630 bed time is insanely early - I can't figure out how you manage it since you say you are also working ? My 3 year olds even after a full day at pre school still aren't ready to go to bed before 730 and one is awake even now. They don't nap and they are up by 630am to get ready for before school childminder and then school.

Put her to bed later. Google recommended bedtimes by age group

Or push meal times back to 6-630 then hour of wind down time then bed. Story. No milk after 630 and no water by the bed.

She calls out for water because it's attention seeking. Not because she is actually thirsty. Same with the light switches and running about. Put her to bed in your bed and move her when asleep - pull the the door nearly shut, no night lights and leave her to it

is she warm enough? try an extra blanket, fluffy socks, a hot water bottle (not too hot!)

tired enough? try exercise, like a short walk after dinner.

hot milk & honey before bed for natural melatonin...

warm bath...

I assume you have tried most of those already

6:30 is a crazily early bedtime, and that's why she's up at 4am.

It's going to be baby steps to change things one at a time from here. 6:45 to bed tomorrow. 7pm the next night. Get to 7:30 and then hold it there for a solid week, and see how she does. Expect her to still wake, but morning wake up time will adjust.

She's got a lot of biological sleep changes to get through to start making this better for you all but you will get there.

6.30?? why? do you expect her to sleep for 12/13 hrs?
You say stirring, if this sit he case, leave her; no need to be going in for very wee sound.
She's now learned that you'll go running.

My 3 year old does 5.30/6 so disagree that it’s too early. But you need to stop them sleeping in your bed, and try to get her to self soothe. It sounds like she’s reliant on you to soothe her currently.

No ideas but I feel your pain. I’ve started to make sure no TV or sugar an hour before bed, plus an hour outside each day. We have consistent bed time/approach but at times it appears to make no difference. I’m
hoping it’s just a phase and will eventually go 🤞🏼🤞🏼

My first child was a bit like this - I used to lie on the floor in the dark and try and ninja out when I thought he was far enough asleep - he was getting hungry - we used to give him a banana in the middle of the night and he'd sleep through to 5am (unfortunately the early rising has never changed - he's the only 14 year old I know who's up before 6am every day)

Then, suddenly at some point between 3.5 and 4, something just clicked with him and he started sleeping through, and just going to sleep without me being there (and in the dark!) - I'd read him a book, tuck him in and tell him to go to sleep now, and he'd just roll over and shut his eyes! and has been super-easy ever since (early rising aside)

I remember going out in to the living room at about 8pm the first time he did it and just not knowing what to do with myself and all this child-free time I suddenly had!

I would definitely try a later bedtime.
Include exercise - jumping games to burn off any last energy disguised as a game, frog jumps, star jumps, running on the spot (Simon Says?)
Bath/pj's 7, book 7.40, hopefully fallen asleep by 8?

Water bottle next to them. Get them to pick their own toy for bed. Reward chart with tangible gift- get them to pick from catalogue /images then show them how many stars to win - or nights, we do a tick per night, star per good behavior. Has to be 7 ticks on the trot to win the reward.

Food- are they eating enough? Banana before bed is useful.

Do yourself a favour op and put her to bed later. She clearly doesn't need to go to bed at 630
Anymore. Give 7-730 a go.

Kids this age need approx 10-11 hours sleep.

OK.
I'm going with controversial too.
She is learning to fall asleep with a parent by her side. So when she stirs, she needs a parent by her side to fall into the next cycle.
You need to teach her to fall asleep without being snuggled up to you.

Can your older daughter sleep somewhere else (your room - I'm guessing there isnt another bedroom otherwise you'd have split them already) for a few days (weeks) while your youngest gets a crash course in night etiquette and falling asleep?

DS1 was a none sleeper. A little younger than the age your daughter is now, he got told that I was too tired to go swimming, and I needed to sleep at night. That night, for the first time ever, he didn't wake me over night. And bounced in the next morning demanding to go swimming.... 10 years later, and I still think he wakes in the night - he's just far to old to want to see his old Mam at 3am now!!!

So, I'd tell her everyone else wants to sleep at night, so she needs to stay quietly in bed. She doesn't have to sleep, but she does need to let everyone else sleep. And find a way to get her asleep without being snuggled into you.

This. Did it with all of mine. Far more upsetting for everyone to be exhausted and unable to function/parent well.
If you can get her sister to have a sleepover elsewhere.
As you've left it quite old it may take a few more nights. Talk about what will happen to her and to everyone you see. In a positive "dd3 is going to start staying in her bed all night until the fairy lights come on (get some on a timer!) she will read quietly , yes she is such a big girl now...yes she is amazing. Granny will be so proud blah blah"
She will break you but don't give in. If you do it will even harder as she knows you will crack.be boring and consistent.
Enjoy sleeping again.

Another vote for sleep training here. But tell the dc you’re going to do this, put the older one in a different room and adopt stuck record mode every time dc gets up: don’t be interesting, don’t give attention, just ‘it’s sleep time’. Even if you need to say it fifty times while leading dc back to bed. I also agree with being ‘too tired’ to do some nice activities, as long as this carries on for.

Sleep training didn’t work for us like all the advice said. We did have an extended bedtime routine two hours to wind down, all the usual stuff but the reality is it wasn’t until she was 4.5yrs at school being worn out mentally and physically did she start to sleep 6hrs + in a row. Honestly in hindsight instead of making her sleep in a separate room i wish I’d just made her a bed next to my bed and kept to two clear choices her bed or the floor bed next to mine. No noise, lights, or games for a clear 6-7hr period then extend that as it gets easier. She’s 17 now and trains five days a week in a sport she competes nationally in she still needs a high level of exercise plus juggles FT college and a PT job on her only spare day. Some kids have lower sleep and higher energy you just have to survive this part! My second DD slept 11hrs straight through no issues it wasn’t our parenting just the way she is wired.

I'm an insomniac and my eldest DS was a nightmare sleeper but I hated the thought of telling him off because I knew what it was like to be lying for hours trying to get to sleep and not be able to. So when I was quite sure it was behavioural rather than a genuine need we worked on things he could do in his room if he couldn't sleep. He has an alexa and can put on an audiobook buy obv yours is younger so a tonies may be more appropriate.

I know she's completely panned now but the supernanny method for getting them back to bed did work for us. You make conditions favourable (no screens, nice walk outside, nice bath before bed and then teeth, story time) then explain it's bedtime and you will see them in the morning. Then the first time they come in you say it's bedtime and place them back to bed. Subsequent visits get no conversation or reaction at all, just silently lift and place them back to bed. It will probably take a very long time but it did work for us, even though it is very hard to not acknowledge them.

With the water bottle...does she need it overnight? Is she drinking well during the day? If you feel she needs it then it's one small cup at night, it's encouraging her to be awake, it's becoming a nonsense and she will need the toilet eventually, another reason to get up! It be tempted to get rid of it.

Thank you so much for all of your replies.

She goes to bed at 6:30/7 because by the time she is home from preschool she is already flagging (if she hasn't had a nap there, which she rarely does). I don't know how she manages to be on the go all day after an awful nights sleep. I do dinner for 5pm, bath for around 6pm, then PJs, book and quiet time. Some nights she will doze off straight away, others she takes a lot longer. It's almost like she just can't fall into a deep sleep. We have tried doing later bedtimes but she ends up an emotional wreck because she's so shattered.

This could hve been us. DS was a terrible sleeper. As it turns out, he has ADHD and that explains a great deal. But that didn't help me when he was this age.

Like others on this thread, we tried sleep training. It 100% backfried on us and was a total disaster. Again, most likely due to the ADHD. I mention that as if you go that route, bear it in mind.

A few things we did that you could try:

An even earlier bed time for one or two nights to see if she's actually just so overtired, she can't sleep at all. I know, that seems crazy but based on what you're saying, i'm thinking that could be an issue.

If that does not work, then yes, you could try a later bed time as others have suggested to see if you can get her to fall asleep quicker.

We eventually allowed him to come into our room when he woke up in the middle of the night and Dh would go downstairs and sleep in his room. this was not an ideal situation for anyone BUT it did mean we all got sleep and overall, there were loads of additional benefits as a result. Many people will tell you this is terrible and you're creating a rod for your own back and I'd respond with, "true, but it's a rod on a back that's had some sleep so I'm happy with that."

white noise or a audible book - white noise helped DS, a book helped a friend's dd. When he was this age or a bit younger, he also had a sort of music mobile lights thing on his crib - he was able to turn it on himself. Admittedly, DH and I would like there listening to it slightly tesnse to see if he wwould go back to sleep - and it would sometimes go on 2 or 3 times, but at least he was in bed, we were in bed and everyone was "resting".

Bizarrely, banning screens immediately before bed was TERRIBLE for us. It would turn him into this weird hyper crazy person. While a little episode of osmething on his ipad would have him in bed, relaxing and more chilled.