Sleep training dilemma for AP type...

[alittleteapot]

DD is 10mo and still waking every half an hour in the evening, sometimes more, and will only be settled by bfing. Sometimes she gets frustrated because she's too full to eat but still wants the comfort. It's time to sleep train her as she so wants to sleep for longer but just doesn't know how. 12 till 6 is better as we co-sleep.

We've been thinking about doing a Jay Gordon style thing where you sit with them while they get to sleep (crying, inevitably.) This is supposedly the AP type of sleep training - even Dr Sears is OK with the dad comforting them to sleep through tears. My thing is, isn't it worse to sit there and ignore their tears, whereas a "light" version of controlled crying - where you go in every 30 secs up to a couple of mins, shows them you are responding to them rather than just sitting their ignoring them?

The argument about sitting with them is they feel angry and frustrated but they do not feel scared and abandoned, which makes sense, but they still feel ignored, plus you're there as a distraction. I'm thinking out loud really but just wondered what people thought before we take the plunge (don't want to but have tried all the no-cry techniques and we've got nowhere.)

Yes Zulu I've also found this thread an incredible support. I feel SO much better now I've decided not to do cc - the worrying about what to do was even more stressful than the constant waking. Last night I managed to pat DD to sleep a couple of times. She woke minutes later but it's still a big leap. She's teething tonight so not waking alot, but I'm glad she knows she can call me for comfort when in pain.

The other thing I haven't said on this thread yet is that I have a weird thing about not wanting to intervene because I want to see how things work out for themselves. It's like not reading the last page of the novel before you've read the middle.

When I started this thread I think I wanted an AP person to tell me sleep training was ok but now I realise I was after support for my true instincts - otherwise i would just have gone ahead.

it is hard to go against the flow of what we see around us teapot. however, informing yourself helps alot. there are a lot of APers on MN (or follow a lot of the principles without designating themselves as such) so it is a good idea to look for their threads which over time, give insight into the bigger picture and also to let you know that you are not alone.

I don't have a single AP type friend in my day to day circle and only one friend who follows a lot of the principles who lives 7 hrs away. we chat on the phone sometimes, email sometimes and have helped each other with different parts of the 'programme' at different times because we have our stronger points on mothering so we ask and share ideas.

i smiled at the idea of not wanting to intervene. i know what you mean.

you will love the super-king zulubump. we upgraded from a double and i am grinning because dh still had the occasional night when dd and I took over nearly the whole bed and he'd find himself sleeping on the edge.

but a big bed is fantastic.

last week dh told MIL that dd is now in her bad all night. now she has never given her opinion before but now she chose to and started to lecture dh about how it is a good thing because it is dangerous to have them in bed with you. [roll eyes]

dh listened politely but later told me he was on the verge of telling her: You know what, if the four of us want to sleep in the same bed, that is what we will do. (meaning the one on the way) this from a man who pre-baby would have thought cosleeping as the equivalent of moving to the moon.

Kiskidee I am curious to know whether you think you will be able to follow AP principles as much with your second child? I seem to spend so much time at the moment cuddling my dd when she needs sleep that I can't imagine how I would do the same for a second child without completely neglecting the first? A lot of people seem to say that the second child just has to fall in with the routine of the first, like it or not.

Also I have the luxury of not worrying about an imminent return to work, which a lot of my friends that have used cc have had the pressure of. It feels right to me to try and do a lot of things the AP way, but I feel like it demands a lot of time. How do people in other cultures who do the whole AP thing instinctively cope I wonder. They still need sleep and to get up and make the breakfast, do chores etc. Just thinking out loud...

Hmm Wasn't sure if I should start another thread or post here... I have a sleep dilemma and could do with some opinions.

DS is 4.5 months old. Up until recently he slept 3h or 4h, woke up for some food (fully BF) and went right back to sleep.

Recently, he started to wake up at least every 2h. Unfortunately, this more or less coincided with me having to return to work. I think most of the time he is not hungry, but wakes up and cannot find sleep by himself.

I seem to have several options here of which I consider the two following.

a) Go down the route of least resistance/most natural way, which is BF him back to sleep at least 4 times a night. The problem is he has a reflux problem and putting him down without keeping him vertical results in the milk coming up over the next hours, which means he wakes up again. Also, he then seems to wake up twisting with indigestion until he manages
to eliminate (=pooh)

b) Resist nursing him each time, but try to settle him in other ways, mostly by carrying him around for 30min, then put him down in crib next to bed and use a dummy, which I have to hold for him. (We have tried co-sleeping in the same bed but that does not work for us). This way I get about 4*1.5 h of sleep and I am sooooo tired all day and dread the nights.

Especially, since I returned to work I want to be there for him, even if he wakes up just to check if mummy is there. I am very happy to spend time with him, even if that mean being very tired, but what really get to me is the constant battle. Alternatively, I could just BF each time, get a lot more sleep, let him suffer a little from reflux and indigestion, respond to his wanting to BF more because it helps with either of those and not worry about strengthening the sucking-to-sleep and sucking-to-comfort associations.

My dilemma is, that bfing him is not really in his best interest, but in mine. And yes: I would like to encourage him to find sleep by himself if he wants to and by constantly bfing him I seem to make him more and more dependent on me.

Zulu -- I have thought a lot about the question you ask and I think the answer lies in the social environment. I think in the cultures that use AP principles naturally, there tend to be large families and the babies are handed of from one family member to the next. Here, there is often one caregiver, and following AP principles if often exhausting for this caregiver. I notice the difference when e,g, my mom is here. One can cook while the other one entertains DS and in no time there is a delicious home made dinner and did not have to be out down/in a sling etc.

Sorry for all the typos. I am very tired and seem to be too tired to face getting some work done.

Mine has a dummy for sleeping. She usually falls asleep in my arms/a sling/my bed around 11pm with the dummy, sleeps through til about 5am usually. Stirs occasionally in the night but can settle herself with the dummy to suck and doesn't require a boob in her mouth.

I really planned not to use dummies at all, and held out for about 6 months or so with my first - the dummy changed both our lives tbh I'm not sure why people have such a big problem with them.

zulu, i mean to respond but been busy.

Hi, I came across these threads and felt that I should say a few things.
My name is Becky and I am a problem solving maternity nurse, which includes sleep training, I am also a paramedic and have worked with mothers and babies in mental health.
I sleep train regularly, I spend time with the family to truly understand what the problem is, I then offer solutions. I think Ferber is utter rubbish, his way often doesn't work. As parents who have been woken continually during the night since baby was born, it is hard for you to listen to their continual cries,despite going into their room often, for those who have attempted Ferber with their babies will know that it is very hard work and requires the strength of a gladiator not to go in pick them up and continue as you were before!
All children can settle themselves to sleep, they just need help learning.
Most babies up to the age of 18mths can be sleep trained usually within a week of me coming to help, sometimes it's only 24 hours, the older the child the longer they need to get used to the new sleeping arrangements.
I'm not here to shamelessly advertise but to offer an alternative solution and let you know that there are professionals out there who are experienced with developed ways of training who won't charge you the earth!

www.happierfamilies.co.uk

Happier families, MN has a £30 fee for advertisement for small business.

Zulu: DD is now 3 and has made the transition from our bed to hers in her own time. in the last 2 months, she has been in our bed 2x. She steadfastly refuses to come in at 5 or 6am when she wakes up and wants a cuddle back to sleep. I or dh goes in and lie with her. Mostly she wants me though.

I trust that when the time comes, she will accept dh more willingly when i am more occupied with the baby. She night weaned when I needed her to. When I was about 8 wks pg and my nipples started to hurt and i was feeling more and more tired. I thought it would be a few nights of tears but it wasn't. Within a week of nightweaning, she started to sleep for 6 hrs, now about 9 and then asked to sleep in her own room.

We have always kept some flexiblity with her bedtime. So I will play it by ear then too. She may or may not accept dh putting her to bed at first but as time goes on things will change. As for the baby, I plan to go with the flow. If i want to watch telly, i am happy to let baby sleep downstairs on me/on dh/on a sheepskin rug till we go to bed. I think moses baskets are naff. If I need to take dd to bed still, then the 3 of us will fit in a bed.

Oh, i will also be using a wrap sling a lot early days just to keep the baby close, snug and feeding hands free.

Dh, in a different convo with his mum who is anti-cosleeping has already said, "Look, if the 4 of us want to sleep in the same bed, that is what we will do."

sorry it took so long to get back. been suffering with my early pg and now my hips.

Just been re-reading this old thread and wonder if any of you are still out there.

DD is now 14 months. She feeds much less frequently in the evenings now. She generally wakes an hour after bed then between and hour and two hours again later. I still feed her to sleep but it generally only takes a few minutes now.

However, while evenings are better nights are worse. She wakes every two hours and the last few days has had a feed at around 2 that seems never ending and that I can't sleep through. (Might be teething.)

I still haven't been out for the evening or with DP, apart from when she was tiny and we'd take her with us to friends.

But that doesn't bother me - I'd happily keep going and wait for her to sort herself out, but I want to ttc and STILL no sign of AF.

Anyway, just thought it might be nice to follow up, this was such an interesting thread. I'm so glad I didn't do anything back in April, but feel I'm facing a dilemma once again. Think we're going to try Jay Gordon tonight. Don't want to but can't see her growing out of this completely for a good while yet.

alittleteapot - Have you thought of doing Pick up/Put down from the Baby Whisperer? We have been doing it with our 6 month old for a week and have seen great improvement, going from waking every 30 mins/hour to now every 2-3 hours. It also doesn't involve crying as you pick up and cuddle them as soon as they cry. Just a thought!

THanks - we did try that but a long time ago. Didn't work for us unfortunately. We've just started Jay Gordon last night. Hard but not too bad. Fingers crossed!